# Ukraine talks breakthrough. Good deal or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498 "2015-02-12T19:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/1 "2015-02-12T19:25:46Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/leaders-minsk-crucial-ukraine-peace-talks-051912803.html](http://news.yahoo.com/leaders-minsk-crucial-ukraine-peace-talks-051912803.html) > [@](#): > > MINSK, Belarus (AP) — Guns would fall silent, heavy weapons would pull back from the front and Ukraine would trade broad autonomy for the east to get back control of its Russian border by the end of 2015 under a peace deal hammered out Thursday in all-night negotiations between Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany. And good or bad for whom? The so-called rebels (in reality the supporters of the legitimate government overthrown in the Western-backed coup) are apparently pleased. That tells us something. The rulers in Kiev, not so much, but presumably Western pressure has forced acceptance, just as Russian pressure has worked on the other side. Will this last? Is it the best that could be hoped for in the circumstances? No mention that I can see of Crimea, which I guess is a done deal now. My own thoughts - anything that stops the killing and prevents escalation is good for all sides. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/2 "2015-02-15T03:55:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > My own thoughts - anything that stops the killing and prevents escalation is good for all sides. Good point. OTOH, since I don’t consider Putin to be an honest broker, there’s still reason to view this as something that _says_ it will stop killing and prevent escalation, rather than something that _does_ those things. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/3 "2015-02-15T04:13:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Good point. > > OTOH, since I don’t consider Putin to be an honest broker, there’s still reason to view this as something that _says_ it will stop killing and prevent escalation, rather than something that _does_ those things. Pretty much this. This is the second such ‘breakthrough’, and the last one didn’t change anything. I HOPE Putin et al will give this up as a bad job, but I really don’t see why he should from his perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/4 "2015-02-15T07:49:00Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > . . . My own thoughts - anything that stops the killing and prevents escalation is good for all sides. Although that is intrinsically a good thing…it’s disturbing when one side grabs a whole bunch of the other side’s land, and then says, “Whoa! We can all stop fighting now.” Not to Godwinize or anything, but would that have flown in 1943? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/5 "2015-02-15T15:43:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Pretty much this. This is the second such ‘breakthrough’, and the last one didn’t change anything. I HOPE Putin et al will give this up as a bad job, but I really don’t see why he should from his perspective. The drop in oil prices has put Putin at a temporary disadvantage. It’s in his interest to quiet things down for now and legitimize his conquests. He can shore up his domestic position and wait until conditions are more favorable for further “adventurism”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/6 "2015-02-15T17:34:39Z")
IMHO it is always good to stand for peace; and it is also good for history to know, in the case it goes bad, who is breaking the agreement and in turn who will get the infamy and deserved opposition. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/7 "2015-02-15T20:00:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > IMHO it is always good to stand for peace; and it is also good for history to know, in the case it goes bad, who is breaking the agreement and in turn who will get the infamy and deserved opposition. Apart from the pleasure of letting people in the future vicariously dislike tyrants and bullies, does this actually improve the situation in any material sense? Because I don’t find it a good tradeoff to sacrifice actual good for some hypothetical; moral condemnation down the line, especially since history tends to get written by the victors. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/8 "2015-02-15T20:37:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/leaders-minsk-crucial-ukraine-peace-talks-051912803.html](http://news.yahoo.com/leaders-minsk-crucial-ukraine-peace-talks-051912803.html) > > And good or bad for whom? The so-called rebels (in reality the supporters of the legitimate government overthrown in the Western-backed coup) are apparently pleased. That tells us something. The rulers in Kiev, not so much, but presumably Western pressure has forced acceptance, just as Russian pressure has worked on the other side. > > Will this last? Is it the best that could be hoped for in the circumstances? No mention that I can see of Crimea, which I guess is a done deal now. > > My own thoughts - anything that stops the killing and prevents escalation is good for all sides. As a sympathizer of Novorussia, I don’t think this is ideal. I was hoping for, and still hope for, nothing short of partition of the Ukraine with complete and total independence for Donetsk and Lugansk. If independence was good enough for Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, and East Timor, it’s good enough for Novorussia as well. That being said, at least an end to the fighting is a good thing, and limited autonomy for the east will allow the Novorussians to lick their wounds for a while and consolidate popular support for their cause. Donetsk is the second richest oblast in the country, or was before the Federal government started shelling and bombing it, and hopefully in the long run more people there will tire of subsidizing the rest of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/9 "2015-02-15T20:39:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Although that is intrinsically a good thing…it’s disturbing when one side grabs a whole bunch of the other side’s land, and then says, “Whoa! We can all stop fighting now.” > > Not to Godwinize or anything, but would that have flown in 1943? Russia didn’t ‘seize’ Donetsk and Lugansk. They’re fighting for an _independent and sovereign nation_, free from domination by Brussels, Moscow or Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/10 "2015-02-15T20:51:27Z")
Pull the other one; it’s got bells. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/11 "2015-02-15T21:18:07Z")
Brussels? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/12 "2015-02-15T21:32:10Z")
Metonymy for the European Union. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/13 "2015-02-16T00:45:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Brussels? So I wasn’t the only one who laughed at that? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/14 "2015-02-16T01:02:55Z")
Looking at the [agreement itself](http://slavyangrad.org/2015/02/12/minsk-agreement-2-0-february-12-2015/#more-4940) it looks to be a good deal for the separatists - total amnesty (point 5), pensions to be paid in the separatist territory (point 8), constitutional changes in Ukraine to increase decentralization (point 11) with control over their local elections (point 12). And a law to be passed which addresses the following things: > [@](#): > > uch measures in accordance with the Law “On the special order of local government in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions” shall include the following: > > exemption from punishment, harassment and discrimination of individuals associated with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions; > the right to linguistic self-determination; > participation of local governments in the appointment of the heads of prosecutorial bodies and the courts in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions; > ability for the central executive authorities to enter into agreements regarding economic, social and cultural development of certain regions of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions with the relevant local authorities; > the State shall support the socio-economic development of individual regions of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions; > facilitation by the central government of cross-border cooperation between certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions and the regions of the Russian Federation; > establishment of units of People’s Militia by order of local councils with the goal of maintaining public order in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions; > the powers of local council deputies and officers elected in early elections, to be set by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine in accordance with this law, may not be terminated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/15 "2015-02-16T01:45:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So I wasn’t the only one who laughed at that? Yeah, I was wondering where that name had sprouted from. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/16 "2015-02-16T03:28:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So I wasn’t the only one who laughed at that? Dr. Evil: I’m told it was a beautiful Belgian day. The smell of waffles and brussels sprouts filled the summer air… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/17 "2015-02-19T03:22:06Z")
Debaltseve has just fallen, if anybody’s still paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/18 "2015-02-19T06:40:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Debaltseve has just fallen, if anybody’s still paying attention. I noticed. Not an auspicious beginning to the latest cease fire. Poroshenko is asking for UN peace keepers, now. I find that unlikely to happen with Russia’s veto. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/19 "2015-02-19T06:42:17Z")
As events are clearly displaying, the current “ceasefire” is about as much of a joke as the Munich Agreement. Hopefully the United States will start pouring in weapons to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498/20 "2015-03-02T23:50:36Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > As a sympathizer of Novorussia, I don’t think this is ideal. I was hoping for, and still hope for, nothing short of partition of the Ukraine with complete and total independence for Donetsk and Lugansk. Why does that make sense? I mean, there’s no Novorussian or Donetski nationality. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-talks-breakthrough-good-deal-or-bad/712498.md?page=2)