# Ukraine: Why the current US spin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157 "2014-03-07T23:03:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/1 "2014-03-07T23:03:09Z")
I am seriously baffled by the popular reaction to the events in Ukraine. As far as I can tell, Americans across the political spectrum are saying " Oh yeah, makes total sense. The ultra-corrupt President-for-life we just spent the Olympics criticizing rolls into the neighbors house when they are having a bad week and tries to annex part of the country? Cool beans!" I know the arguments, and they are all over GD right now, so I want to step away from the arguments themselves and look at where this attitude is coming from. I can’t really get a read on the political spectrum on this (besides, of course, the Obama-can-do-no-good crowd). Is there a left or right spin? My initial theory is that we are just making excuses because we know we can’t do much about it. So rather than admitting we are militarily over committed and politically divided, we are all just telling ourselves “No, nothing to see here. It’s totally cool to invade countries, duh!” Then there are realists who are hoping to sacrifice a bit of land for a pro-western Ukraine. I get that, I guess. But I sense there is more to it than that. What is going on? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/2 "2014-03-07T23:25:08Z")
There is certainly a left/right spin on it. For different reasons, both left wingers and right wingers of a certain type are basically saying what you mentioned in the OP…namely that it’s all good that Russia is dynamically assisting their poor Crimean brethren and sistren to break away from the Ukraine and join the mother country as the gods intended, etc etc, blah blah blah. > [@](#): > > My initial theory is that we are just making excuses because we know we can’t do much about it. So rather than admitting we are militarily over committed and politically divided, we are all just telling ourselves “No, nothing to see here. It’s totally cool to invade countries, duh!” No, I don’t think so. There is more to it than a realistic assessment that there is little we (as in the US) can do to directly impact events (the Euros probably COULD do more, as sanctions from them would have a greater impact on Russia than ones from the US…pretty obviously and rightfully, military options are off the table). > [@](#): > > But I sense there is more to it than that. What is going on? On the right wing side I suspect that this (in the US) has more to do with further underscoring that Obama et al are weak, don’t know what they are doing, etc. Really, nothing new to see here…it’s the same meme they have been touting for years now, and while certain aspects shift the over all tune remains the same. Ironic, considering this is Russia we are talking about, but then politics make for strange, Onion-esque type events. On the left wing side, I think CNN said it best [here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opinion/ghitis-new-cold-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1): > [@](#): > > 1. Don’t expect support from all international peace activists (unless the U.S. invades). > > To liberal activists in Ukraine and Russia, the reaction from international peace movement must be a hard pill to swallow. Parts of Ukraine have been captured at the point of a gun by a regime that actively suppresses dissent. When liberal Russians protested, police arrested hundreds of anti-war demonstrators. > > While Russia’s invasion of Ukrainian territory and its harsh crackdown on local protests have been criticized by some human rights activists, the reaction among some prominent “peace” activists has been astonishing. Several have mimicked Putin’s line, blaming the U.S. for the crisis. Instead of taking a clear stance in support of a country with invading military forces on its soil, some so-called anti-war groups have taken the opportunity to dust off their anti-American vitriol. > > A favorite line of discussion is whether Washington has any right to criticize Russia’s invasion of Ukrainian territory after the U.S. invaded Iraq, a country that was ruled by one of the world’s most brutal, genocidal dictators. However misguided America’s Iraq invasion, even drawing the comparison is an insult to Ukrainians. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/3 "2014-03-07T23:28:49Z")
Who is saying “It’s totally cool to invade a country?” eta: I am a little sick of people saying “Where are the peace protesters now?!?”. Generally people protest the actions of their own country. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/4 "2014-03-07T23:41:17Z")
The spin I’ve seen is from crazy train McCain et al that we should be taking a hard line on the Russians. Wrong. The reason for the spin is to increase and perpetuate the military/executive budget, which has been grossly overfunded since the end of WW2. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/5 "2014-03-07T23:52:39Z")
Ok, so let’s keep track. We have hawks wanting military action (makes sense). We have right wingers wanting whatever is the opposite of Obama’s stance (kind of makes sense? But really, pro-Putin?). We have peace activists who have chosen to support Russia (baffling), and we have leftist a who support Russia for reasons unknown. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/6 "2014-03-08T00:01:20Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I am seriously baffled by the popular reaction to the events in Ukraine. As far as I can tell, Americans across the political spectrum are saying " Oh yeah, makes total sense. The ultra-corrupt President-for-life we just spent the Olympics criticizing rolls into the neighbors house when they are having a bad week and tries to annex part of the country? Cool beans!" > > I know the arguments, and they are all over GD right now, so I want to step away from the arguments themselves and look at where this attitude is coming from. I can’t really get a read on the political spectrum on this (besides, of course, the Obama-can-do-no-good crowd). Is there a left or right spin? > > My initial theory is that we are just making excuses because we know we can’t do much about it. So rather than admitting we are militarily over committed and politically divided, we are all just telling ourselves “No, nothing to see here. It’s totally cool to invade countries, duh!” > > Then there are realists who are hoping to sacrifice a bit of land for a pro-western Ukraine. I get that, I guess. > > But I sense there is more to it than that. What is going on? Which right and which left? There are some right-wingers going apeshit over this while others such as the American Conservative Union founded by Taki and Pat Buchanan(who are so right-wing they’re fans of Franco) are supporting the Putin line. There are similar splits on the left. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/7 "2014-03-08T00:02:53Z")
What “leftist” organizations are supporting Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/8 "2014-03-08T00:09:26Z")
All the leftists I know are sad because there isn’t anything that can be done. Roll in the tanks? Air strikes? Crippling economic sanctions? Not so good. Best we’ve got are diplomatic channels and some mild economic sanctions. Russia is still close enough to a military superpower to be immune from direct confrontation, and parts of Ukraine isn’t important enough to go to war over. If Russia tried to conquer the whole of Ukraine…that might lead to war. ETA: And even many leftists would (reluctantly) agree with that war. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/9 "2014-03-08T00:55:15Z")
> [@](#): > > There is certainly a left/right spin on it. For different reasons, both left wingers and right wingers of a certain type are basically saying what you mentioned in the OP…namely that it’s all good that Russia is dynamically assisting their poor Crimean brethren and sistren to break away from the Ukraine and join the mother country as the gods intended, etc etc, blah blah blah. What!? I certainly haven’t seen _any_ Americans who are supporting Russia’s actions. None. Nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/10 "2014-03-08T01:56:16Z")
Yea, I haven’t really seen what the OP describes either. At least in the US, there’s a certain amount of shoulder shrugging that there isn’t much we can do, but I don’t think I’ve seen sizable chucnks of any side of the political spectrum saying its OK for Russia to invade. (As a general rule, it really helps if you start a thread that says: “group X says Y”, you link to an actual example of someone in that group actually making the claim.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/11 "2014-03-08T02:03:22Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, I haven’t really seen what the OP describes either. At least in the US, there’s a certain amount of shoulder shrugging that there isn’t much we can do, but I don’t think I’ve seen sizable chucnks of any side of the political spectrum saying its OK for Russia to invade. > > (As a general rule, it really helps if you start a thread that says: “group X says Y”, you link to an actual example of someone in that group actually making the claim.) Agreed. We’re seeing a few posters here cheerlead Putin, but I think they are mostly non-Americans. Outside this board, I’m not seeing any Americans say this is fine and dandy, but many of us are resigned to the fact that there isn’t much we can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/12 "2014-03-08T02:29:36Z")
I think the idea that Americans are calmly accepting that they have no power on the world stage is, itself, something new. Maybe, however, there is a parallel with the annexation of the Baltic states (Est., Lat., Lith.) into the Soviet Union, where the US never officially recognized it but de facto totally accepted it as a done deal. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/13 "2014-03-08T02:37:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Ok, so let’s keep track. > > We have hawks wanting military action (makes sense). We have right wingers wanting whatever is the opposite of Obama’s stance (kind of makes sense? But really, pro-Putin?). We have peace activists who have chosen to support Russia (baffling), and we have leftist a who support Russia for reasons unknown. > > Is that right? No, that’s not right. I don’t even know what section of the galactic proponent/opposition/secessionist molecular redistributional genetic purity mutation alliance this comes from. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/14 "2014-03-08T04:03:31Z")
Maybe (shock horror) this is not a “left vs right” issue at all. I think people are simply choosing to reserve judgment for the time being because there aren’t any clear good or bad guys, and it only gets murkier the more one looks at it. There is nothing wrong with that and it’s a refreshing attitude in some ways. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/15 "2014-03-08T04:26:45Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Maybe (shock horror) this is not a “left vs right” issue at all. I think people are simply choosing to reserve judgment for the time being because there aren’t any clear good or bad guys, and it only gets murkier the more one looks at it. There is nothing wrong with that and it’s a refreshing attitude in some ways. I think we’re all\* clear on the fact that Russia is bullying it’s way into Crimea, even if there isn’t anything we can do about it. There might be plenty of bad guys in Ukraine, but there are bad guys in lots of countries. \*most of us. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/16 "2014-03-08T04:36:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If Russia tried to conquer the whole of Ukraine…that might lead to war. ETA: And even many leftists would (reluctantly) agree with that war. :eek::eek: Could for the love of all that is sacred someone in the USG order that the movie [The Day After](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/) to be played on loop on some US tv channel. A war between Russia and America means the end of civilisation as we know it. Leftist would support that war?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/17 "2014-03-08T04:39:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :eek::eek: > > Could for the love of all that is sacred someone in the USG order that the movie [The Day After](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/) to be played on loop on some US tv channel. > > A war between Russia and America means the end of civilisation as we know it. Leftist would support that war?:eek: Well, I would not support that war, but if you take the opposite position, what is to stop Russia from annexing any small state on its borders? If I were Finland or Poland, I would be very nervous that this had such a weak condemnation in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/18 "2014-03-08T04:54:33Z")
The right talk machine is spinning it as Putin=strong, Obama=weak. In fact, Putin is NOT strong at all and is taking considerable risk placing troops into a country that has a good-sized standing military and air defense capability. Let some Russian soldier shoot down a Ukrainian citizen and there will likely be all out civil war erupting there, with Putin in the middle of it, bleeding money and lives away a la their disaster in Afghanistan. He’s also weak because he didn’t take this to the UN, thus weakening Russia’s voice in international affairs everywhere else in the world. The US is in the stronger position of standing back, condemning the action, and being able to say “you know, Vlad, I told you not to get into this mess, and now you’re on your own.” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/19 "2014-03-08T05:07:37Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, I would not support that war, but if you take the opposite position, what is to stop Russia from annexing any small state on its borders? If I were Finland or Poland, I would be very nervous that this had such a weak condemnation in the West. Not much. The West should have thought of that when they decided to expand East. Many well known Russia experts, including George Kennan (architect of the policy of containment) opposed that just for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/20 "2014-03-08T05:30:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Could for the love of all that is sacred someone in the USG order that the movie [The Day After](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/) to be played on loop on some US tv channel. > > A war between Russia and America means the end of civilisation as we know it. Leftist would support that war?:eek: The problem isn’t Russia vs. USA, we’re both responsible adults (metaphorically speaking) and we’re both sane enough, presumably, to keep the missiles inside the silos. No, the problems are the little geeks – Iran, Syria, and _especially_ North Korea – who would see a war between the Big Boys as a perfect opportunity to make their voices heard, one way or another. That’s basically how WWI started, btw – all those petty rivalries reaching a boiling point at once. And that’s probably why there won’t be any war over Crimea, because thankfully, both world leaders realized they’d better learn from fucking history or they’d be doomed to repeat it. (For now…) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157.md?page=2)