# Ukraine: Why the current US spin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157 "2014-03-07T23:03:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/21 "2014-03-08T05:32:39Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The right talk machine is spinning it as Putin=strong, Obama=weak. In fact, Putin is NOT strong at all and is taking considerable risk placing troops into a country that has a good-sized standing military and air defense capability. Let some Russian soldier shoot down a Ukrainian citizen and there will likely be all out civil war erupting there, with Putin in the middle of it, bleeding money and lives away a la their disaster in Afghanistan. He’s also weak because he didn’t take this to the UN, thus weakening Russia’s voice in international affairs everywhere else in the world. The US is in the stronger position of standing back, condemning the action, and being able to say “you know, Vlad, I told you not to get into this mess, and now you’re on your own.” Wow. The power of self-delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/22 "2014-03-08T05:36:20Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > He’s also weak because he didn’t take this to the UN, thus weakening Russia’s voice in international affairs everywhere else in the world." To a certain extent I agree. It’s worth noting that even the Chinese have been extremely upset about this if for no other reason than they don’t want someone saying, “So if Crimea can be independent of the Ukraine does that mean Taiwan can be independent of China and if the whole of the Ukraine not just Crimea isn’t allowed to decide the fate of Crimea, doesn’t that also mean that the whole of China doesn’t get to choose the fate of Taiwan.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/23 "2014-03-08T05:57:42Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, I would not support that war, but if you take the opposite position, what is to stop Russia from annexing any small state on its borders? If I were Finland or Poland, I would be very nervous that this had such a weak condemnation in the West. Ask Hungary (1956) or the two former Czechoslovakia countries (1968) whether this is a new thing. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/24 "2014-03-08T06:16:06Z")
Again, I’m not seeing any ‘go russia’ sentiment. There is plenty of realpolitik what the duck can we do about it??? Even Sven, can you show some backing on the go clad go cheer leading? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/25 "2014-03-08T07:37:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow. The power of self-delusion. Pithy. Acerbic. Empty. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/26 "2014-03-08T09:41:19Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Again, I’m not seeing any ‘go russia’ sentiment. There is plenty of realpolitik what the duck can we do about it??? > > Even Sven, can you show some backing on the go clad go cheer leading? The go! Vlad go! slur is similar to the go! Saddam go! political slur those in support of pro-invasion policy when we did the invading. Now its used on defense when the ‘evil doer’ is doing the invading. It’s compensating for weakness in the cause that forces proponents to vilify the opponents as coddling a foreign enemy. It’s a way to avoid debate that ‘evil doers’ can sometimes be right and have some legit justification for what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/27 "2014-03-08T09:48:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ask Hungary (1956) or the two former Czechoslovakia countries (1968) whether this is a new thing. Are you aware that those were invaded by the USSR but Ronnie Raygun defeated that evil empire so it no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/28 "2014-03-08T11:34:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To a certain extent I agree. > > It’s worth noting that even the Chinese have been extremely upset about this if for no other reason than they don’t want someone saying, “So if Crimea can be independent of the Ukraine does that mean Taiwan can be independent of China and if the whole of the Ukraine not just Crimea isn’t allowed to decide the fate of Crimea, doesn’t that also mean that the whole of China doesn’t get to choose the fate of Taiwan.” China also really does believe it’s “don’t mess with other sovereign countries” rhetoric. Their definition of “other countries” can get a bit creative. But they genuinely do believe that political expansionism Is a bad scene. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/29 "2014-03-08T11:35:31Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Again, I’m not seeing any ‘go russia’ sentiment. There is plenty of realpolitik what the duck can we do about it??? > > Even Sven, can you show some backing on the go clad go cheer leading? Just on these boards. I definitely don’t have a good grasp on the wider view- which I hope this thrash can provide. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/30 "2014-03-08T11:59:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ask Hungary (1956) or the two former Czechoslovakia countries (1968) whether this is a new thing. Hungry should have avoided joining in a genocidal war against the Soviet Union a decade prior. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/31 "2014-03-08T12:39:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Hungry should have avoided joining in a genocidal war against the Soviet Union a decade prior. I guess they were just Hungry for some action, eh? On a serious note, I don’t see how a country’s actions during the 1940s in any way justifies its victimisation in 1956. That is some sick logic right there ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/32 "2014-03-08T13:52:04Z")
How? They looked after their own interests in the 40’s so they cannot complain when the CCCP did the same in 1956. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/33 "2014-03-08T16:28:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > On the left wing side, I think CNN said it best [here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opinion/ghitis-new-cold-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1): This is remarkably disingenuous. The US forces, obeying a lying government, launched an unprovoked war of imperialist aggression against an atrophied pariah state on the other side of the world, killing hundreds of thousands of people after a decade of mass-murderous sanctions and bombing, which followed Operation Restore Kuwaiti Dictatorship (likewise launched on a lie, remember April Glaspie, the Kuwaiti incubators hoax, etc.?), and was part of a pattern of intervention going back at least to the late 1950s. If anybody had really had the removal of Saddam Hussein for humanitarian reasons as their goal, that would have been possible with the removal of the sanctions and bombing, thus at least setting up the possibility that Hussein would go the way of Ceasescu and so many others. There’s a lesson there. In contrast, Vladimir Putin watched as a country on his own border, with a large Russian community among other interests, saw its democratically-elected government overthrown by a Western-backed coalition that includes openly fascist elements. In response, his military operation has been (so far) completely bloodless. Indeed, John Kerry and company have no right to criticize Putin, and if anything, the comparison is too hard on Moscow and too soft on Washington. I do oppose Putin’s actions in principle, but I’m far more concerned about the consequences of Western interventionism, particularly when it’s stoked by diaspora communities and others who want the US to do their dirty work, consequences be damned. Sometimes they aren’t successful (Syrians), sometimes only partially so (Cuban-Americans), but often they are (Libyans, Albanians, Bosnians, Kuwaitis, Zionists, in recent years) and the results are disastrous. > [@AK84](#): > > How? They looked after their own interests in the 40’s so they cannot complain when the CCCP did the same in 1956. I see a lot of collective punishment here. It’s related, I think, to the pattern (also seen in this thread) of referring to the ruling class as “we.” Incidentally, Eisenhower couldn’t do anything about Hungary in 1956, and Johnson could do nothing about Czechoslovakia in 1968, even if they had wanted to, because it would have risked nuclear war. Let’s not forget that the Hungarian revolutionaries were opposing the Stalinists and setting up workers’ councils, running their workplaces democratically. The US has no business intervening in any way in Ukraine, and has done too much to cause upheaval already. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/34 "2014-03-08T16:43:28Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/35 "2014-03-08T16:53:17Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > This is remarkably disingenuous. The US forces, obeying a lying government, launched an unprovoked war of imperialist aggression against an atrophied pariah state on the other side of the world, killing hundreds of thousands of people after a decade of mass-murderous sanctions and bombing, which followed Operation Restore Kuwaiti Dictatorship (likewise launched on a lie, remember April Glaspie, the Kuwaiti incubators hoax, etc.?), and was part of a pattern of intervention going back at least to the late 1950s. > > If anybody had really had the removal of Saddam Hussein for humanitarian reasons as their goal, that would have been possible with the removal of the sanctions and bombing, thus at least setting up the possibility that Hussein would go the way of Ceasescu and so many others. There’s a lesson there. > > In contrast, Vladimir Putin watched as a country on his own border, with a large Russian community among other interests, saw its democratically-elected government overthrown by a Western-backed coalition that includes openly fascist elements. In response, his military operation has been (so far) completely bloodless. Indeed, John Kerry and company have no right to criticize Putin, and if anything, the comparison is too hard on Moscow and too soft on Washington. > > I do oppose Putin’s actions in principle, but I’m far more concerned about the consequences of Western interventionism, particularly when it’s stoked by diaspora communities and others who want the US to do their dirty work, consequences be damned. Sometimes they aren’t successful (Syrians), sometimes only partially so (Cuban-Americans), but often they are (Libyans, Albanians, Bosnians, Kuwaitis, Zionists, in recent years) and the results are disastrous. > > I see a lot of collective punishment here. It’s related, I think, to the pattern (also seen in this thread) of referring to the ruling class as “we.” > > Incidentally, Eisenhower couldn’t do anything about Hungary in 1956, and Johnson could do nothing about Czechoslovakia in 1968, even if they had wanted to, because it would have risked nuclear war. Let’s not forget that the Hungarian revolutionaries were opposing the Stalinists and setting up workers’ councils, running their workplaces democratically. > > The US has no business intervening in any way in Ukraine, and has done too much to cause upheaval already. Well said and it needs to be said, Those that supported US war in Iraq or think it was justified at the time instead of the legal peaceful diplomatic UNSC inspection and verification at the same time … Are comparing that first degree murder to jaywalking by Putin. And nobody is dying because of Putin crossed the street outside of a crosswalk. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/36 "2014-03-08T17:02:29Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > China also really does believe it’s “don’t mess with other sovereign countries” rhetoric. Their definition of “other countries” can get a bit creative. But they genuinely do believe that political expansionism > Is a bad scene. I would explain this in a little bit different way. China does not want any outside country butting it’s nose into Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, any of the minority areas, etc. Or China’s laughably “historic claims” to surrounding countries and the Pacific Ocean territorial disputes halfway to Australia. I believe that modern China has a near record of also publicly supporting other countries with their own internal sovereign issues (with the above exceptions). Only exception I can think of off hand is actually supporting the US led efforts into Afganistan. Whether China actually believes this sovereign nation stuff is a whole 'nother debate ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/37 "2014-03-08T17:17:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Hungry should have avoided joining in a genocidal war against the Soviet Union a decade prior. Respectfully this remark makes little sense. The Hungarian government of 1956 wasn’t remotely related to the Hungarian government of the early 1940s. Moreover, the Soviets didn’t invade because of the Hungarian’s role in WWII. They’d have invaded Poland had the Poles rebelled in 1956 and Poland didn’t join the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/38 "2014-03-08T17:18:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Those that supported US war in Iraq or think it was justified at the time instead of the legal peaceful diplomatic UNSC inspection and verification at the same time … Are comparing that first degree murder to jaywalking by Putin. And nobody is dying because of Putin crossed the street outside of a crosswalk. Then there are those of us who opposed the US war in Iraq and are coming around to the point of view that while Russia’s incursion into Ukraine has not resulted in violence, does not mean its actions are not the equivalent of a local enforcer walking into your corner store and demanding a cut of your profit for “protection”. He’s not laid a hand on you but you have no illusions about the implied threat level, balance of power, or consequences of refusing his demands. And to add insult to injury, some of your employees are on the thug’s side because you’re the store owner who denied them a pay raise last month. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/39 "2014-03-08T17:23:22Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I do oppose Putin’s actions in principle, but I’m far more concerned about the consequences of Western interventionism, particularly when it’s stoked by **diaspora communities and others who want the US to do their dirty work** , consequences be damned. Sometimes they aren’t successful (Syrians), sometimes only partially so (Cuban-Americans), but often they are (Libyans, Albanians, Bosnians, Kuwaitis, **Zionists** , in recent years) and the results are disastrous. Dude, you’re amongst friends. You can say Jews. You don’t have to say Zionists when complaining about diaspora communities manipulating the US for their own ends. Besides, the Jews were the original diaspora community. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/40 "2014-03-08T17:26:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow. The power of self-delusion. [Guess again](http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-6-2014/kimberly-marten). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157.md?page=3)