# Ukraine: Why the current US spin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157 "2014-03-07T23:03:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/41 "2014-03-08T17:38:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It’s a way to avoid debate that ‘evil doers’ can sometimes be right and have some legit justification for what they were doing. To whom are you referring as being “right” and having “some legit justification” for what they are doing? ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/42 "2014-03-08T17:52:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, you’re amongst friends. > > You can say Jews. > > You don’t have to say Zionists when complaining about diaspora communities manipulating the US for their own ends. > > Besides, the Jews were the original diaspora community. If I did, that would not be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/43 "2014-03-08T18:17:20Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > If I did, that would not be accurate. Please explain because I don’t see how “Zionists” are a “diaspora movement” but “Jews” aren’t. You claim that “Cubans”, “Albanians”, “Bosnians” and “Kuwaitis” have manipulated the US, but then rather than referring to “Jews” you refer to “Zionists”. Please, it’s obvious you were using the term as a code word. Just say what you really meant. “Jews”. It’s not that hard. Besides, I’m not sure why claiming the US government is manipulated by “Bosnians” who want the US to “do their dirty work” is somehow less objectionable than claiming the US is manipulated by “Jews” to “do their dirty work”. Moreover, you’ve in previous threads said you believed that “the blood libel” the myth of Jews kidnapping and killing children to make them into Matzo had “a kernel of truth” to it and “a basis in fact” which strikes me as a far, far less defensible statement. So, once again, if you’re going to refer to “Cubans”, “Bosnians”, and other ethnic groups manipulating the US government don’t when the question of Jews doing it hide behind the word “Zionists”. Just say “Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/44 "2014-03-08T18:19:09Z")
Jews! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/45 "2014-03-08T18:22:23Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > In contrast, Vladimir Putin watched as a country on his own border, with a large Russian community among other interests, saw its democratically-elected government overthrown by a Western-backed coalition that includes openly fascist elements. Western-backed coa-whatnow? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/46 "2014-03-08T18:51:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please explain because I don’t see how “Zionists” are a “diaspora movement” but “Jews” aren’t. > > You claim that “Cubans”, “Albanians”, “Bosnians” and “Kuwaitis” have manipulated the US, but then rather than referring to “Jews” you refer to “Zionists”. > > Please, it’s obvious you were using the term as a code word. > > Just say what you really meant. > > “Jews”. > > It’s not that hard. > > Besides, I’m not sure why claiming the US government is manipulated by “Bosnians” who want the US to “do their dirty work” is somehow less objectionable than claiming the US is manipulated by “Jews” to “do their dirty work”. > > Moreover, you’ve in previous threads said you believed that “the blood libel” the myth of Jews kidnapping and killing children to make them into Matzo had “a kernel of truth” to it and “a basis in fact” which strikes me as a far, far less defensible statement. > > So, once again, if you’re going to refer to “Cubans”, “Bosnians”, and other ethnic groups manipulating the US government don’t when the question of Jews doing it hide behind the word “Zionists”. > > Just say “Jews”. I said “and others.” In the case of the Israel Lobby, many are Jewish but many are not, and besides, the Jewish elements are not usually composed of Israelis who emigrated to the US. This is very different from, say, the work of the Albanian-American community in 1999. Regarding the Bosnians, are you familiar with the work of the lobbying firm Ruder Finn? In that case and Kuwait’s, it wasn’t solely, or even in part, the work of activists from a community within the US. Regarding the blood libel, my point then and now was that urban legends often come from somewhere, like one sees on Snopes all the time. It’s totally plausible that something happened to inspire the myth. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/47 "2014-03-08T18:53:46Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Western-backed coa-whatnow? 😕 What do you call it when John McCain travels to their protest camps and tries to inspire them to keep fighting, without seeming to mind with whom he’s making common cause (Neo-Nazis et al)? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/48 "2014-03-08T18:57:18Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Regarding the blood libel, my point then and now was that urban legends often come from somewhere, like one sees on Snopes all the time. It’s totally plausible that something happened to inspire the myth. It’s true. There are some rather large noses on my father’s side of the family. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/49 "2014-03-08T19:02:51Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > What do you call it when John McCain travels to their protest camps and tries to inspire them to keep fighting, without seeming to mind with whom he’s making common cause (Neo-Nazis et al)? Yeah, McCain wanted the US to team up with Al-Qaeda linked terrorists in Syria, and now’s he’s seen cozying up to Ukrainian right wingers. That says more about American conservatives though. Americans need to be just as on guard about our own conservative, nationalist right as Ukrainians and Europeans do theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/50 "2014-03-08T19:03:52Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Regarding the blood libel, my point then and now was that urban legends often come from somewhere, like one sees on Snopes all the time. It’s totally plausible that something happened to inspire the myth. Every time I try to deal with folklore on this board I regret it. But the kernel of truth in legends is not necessarily in the text of the legend. The legend arose among Christians (as far as we can tell) and spread to Muslims. It is about Jews inverting Christian rituals. The kernel of truth is that medieval European Christians feared and misunderstood Jews, and assumed their religion was like Christianity, but in Opposite Land. There is no earthly reason to think that actual Jews ever did anything resembling kidnapping or child sacrifice, or that individual Jews did this in any greater numbers than members of any other population. I note “individual Jews” not because I’m aware of any historically valid incidents, but because I’m allowing the possibility of psychopaths. (Edit: but refusing to allow them to represent the population as a whole.) Also, I do think it can be useful to point out that not all Jews support Israel (the actions of the state) or even Israel (the idea of the existence of the state), but I don’t think calling Jews-with-an-interest-in-Israel “Zionists” is helpful after about 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/51 "2014-03-08T19:04:57Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Regarding the blood libel, my point then and now was that urban legends often come from somewhere, like one sees on Snopes all the time. It’s totally plausible that something happened to inspire the myth. Uh-huh. That’s a bit different from your previous explanations as to why you believed that the blood libel “had a basis in fact” and why you saw nothing odd about using various anti-Semitic web sites. As for your references to “the Israeli lobby” not being all Jews, I’m not familiar with any members of AIPAC who aren’t Jewish. Could you name some? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/52 "2014-03-08T19:12:15Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > What do you call it when John McCain travels to their protest camps and tries to inspire them to keep fighting, without seeming to mind with whom he’s making common cause (Neo-Nazis et al)? Neo-Nazis, eh??? Oh well, never mind then. I thought you were gonna say something really stupid like, oh I dunno, like the entire Euromaidan was deliberately staged & manipulated by the C.I.A. Because that’s soooo 1970’s. But blaming Neo-Nazi proto-Zionists makes much more sense. Gotcha, ya. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/53 "2014-03-08T19:13:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Hungry should have avoided joining in a genocidal war against the Soviet Union a decade prior. That’s a weak argument. There was no apparent difference in the post-war Soviet policy towards Czechoslovakia and Poland (which were invaded by Germany) than there was towards Hungary and Romania (which allied with Germany). ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/54 "2014-03-08T19:24:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The kernel of truth is that medieval European Christians feared and misunderstood Jews, and assumed their religion was like Christianity, but in Opposite Land. > > There is no earthly reason to think that actual Jews ever did anything resembling kidnapping or child sacrifice, or that individual Jews did this in any greater numbers than members of any other population. I note “individual Jews” not because I’m aware of any historically valid incidents, but because I’m allowing the possibility of psychopaths. (Edit: but refusing to allow them to represent the population as a whole.) Exactly, and unfortunately such things are used to smear the population as a whole. > [@](#): > > Also, I do think it can be useful to point out that not all Jews support Israel (the actions of the state) or even Israel (the idea of the existence of the state), but I don’t think calling Jews-with-an-interest-in-Israel “Zionists” is helpful after about 1967. Why not? It’s an ongoing issue. It’s too late to give the US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand etc. back to their rightful owners, but many Palestinian families still have the keys to their houses. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Uh-huh. That’s a bit different from your previous explanations as to why you believed that the blood libel “had a basis in fact” and why you saw nothing odd about using various anti-Semitic web sites. No, that was always my point. And what “anti-Semitic web sites”? You had a problem with If Americans Knew, who have defended themselves against the reflexive accusations of “anti-Semitism.” I wanted nothing to do with the American Free Press after I did a little checking, and saw that they make common cause with Holocaust revisionists/deniers. > [@](#): > > As for your references to “the Israeli lobby” not being all Jews, I’m not familiar with any members of AIPAC who aren’t Jewish. > > Could you name some? I’m not sure if they’re members of AIPAC per se, but the Israel Lobby definitely consists of non-Jews like John Hagee and the rest of Christians United for Israel, Mike Huckabee, Phyllis Schlafly, Franklin Graham, George W. Bush, Pat Robertson, Glenn Beck, Tom DeLay, Ralph Reed, etc. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/55 "2014-03-08T19:34:01Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Neo-Nazis, eh??? Oh well, never mind then. > > I thought you were gonna say something really stupid like, oh I dunno, like the entire Euromaidan was deliberately staged & manipulated by the C.I.A. Because that’s soooo 1970’s. > > But blaming Neo-Nazi proto-Zionists makes much more sense. Gotcha, ya. No, they’re not proto-Zionists. [You really didn’t know about the ideological composition of the movement that seized power in Ukraine?](http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/56 "2014-03-08T19:41:59Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Why not? It’s an ongoing issue. It’s too late to give the US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand etc. back to their rightful owners, but many Palestinian families still have the keys to their houses. It’s an issue of terminology. “Zionist” is not really appropriate now that Israel is a stable nation-state. Whatever you think about the relationship of Palestinians and Israelis (and I tend to be pro-Palestinian, personally), Israel has already been established. Using “Zionist” is a bit like calling the Americans “Pilgrims” or the English “Saxons.” The issue is certainly ongoing, but it’s in a new phase, and it behooves both sides to recognize the reality in order to move forward. It sucks, but welcome to Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/57 "2014-03-08T19:55:59Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Why not? It’s an ongoing issue. It’s too late to give the US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand etc. back to their rightful owners, but many Palestinian families still have the keys to their houses. Do you really think any of those houses are still standing? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/58 "2014-03-08T20:04:28Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, they’re not proto-Zionists. [You really didn’t know about the ideological composition of the movement that seized power in Ukraine?](http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/) I’m having an attack of terminal irony. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/59 "2014-03-08T20:12:07Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > There is no earthly reason to think that actual Jews ever did anything resembling kidnapping or child sacrifice, or that individual Jews did this in any greater numbers than members of any other population. Except that’s not what Our Lord Peace alleged back in the thread in question. He actually believed the stories put forth by a discredited academic who claimed during the Middle Ages there were groups of Italian Jews kidnapping and murdering Jews. He did this when trying to explain we shouldn’t view the website IfAmericansknew as a kooky anti-Semitic website for peddling stories of Israelis murdering Palestinians to steal their organs and who’s founder insisted that the Blood Libel had “a basis in fact”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157/60 "2014-03-08T20:26:20Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No, that was always my point. Really, so when you tried to point to the story put forth by that discredited hack who claimed Italian Jews had engaged in kidnapping and murdering Jews, you were actually engaging in the same type of argument put forth by Dr. Drake?:dubious: > [@](#): > > No, that was always my point. And what “anti-Semitic web sites”? You had a problem with If Americans Knew, who have defended themselves against the reflexive accusations of “anti-Semitism.” I wanted nothing to do with the American Free Press after I did a little checking, and saw that they make common cause with Holocaust revisionists/deniers. Er… yes, website that spread anti-Semitic myths about Jews murdering people to steal their organs are anti-Semitic. Also, did you just admit that you used to regularly use the American Free Press a notoriously anti-Semitic publication as a source until someone called you on it? Beyond that, I nearly pissed myself laughing at the idea that you didn’t know they were anti-Semitic until you did “a little checking”. All one needed to do was read them. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Free\_Press](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Free_Press)(yes, I feel dumb using the wiki link) > [@](#): > > **I’m not sure if they’re members of AIPAC per se, but the Israel Lobby** definitely consists of non-Jews like John Hagee and the rest of Christians United for Israel, Mike Huckabee, Phyllis Schlafly, Franklin Graham, George W. Bush, Pat Robertson, Glenn Beck, Tom DeLay, Ralph Reed, etc. I’m sorry but for someone who claims there Master’s thesis was on the relationship between Israel and the United States this is a remarkably stupid statement. As anyone who’s remotely familiar knows AIPAC is the Israeli Lobby. Whenever anyone in Washington refers to “the Israeli Lobby” that’s what they mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-why-the-current-us-spin/683157.md?page=4)