# Ukrainian meddling in US elections - with DNC's help **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 11, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903 "2017-01-11T22:11:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/21 "2017-01-12T18:34:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t get your post. The gist of what you’re saying seems to be that the DNC wasn’t really involved. OK, but in the case of the Russians, there’s no indication at all that the RNC was involved. The issue there is that the Russians tried to interfere with the election and we should all be outraged and do something about it. I don’t see how your post even addresses that. I am not attempting to address every aspect of each of these cases – I’m focusing my comments on my quick skim of the story in the OP with the general principles of foreign governments involving themselves in elections. Maybe you’re confused because you are assuming that I think that Republicans did something wrong with the Russian hacking issue? ETA: And I also totally agree with your comment about the veracity of the information supplied being an important issue. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/22 "2017-01-12T18:37:45Z")
I don’t know what you think of the issue of Republicans being blamed. But the question here is the extent to which the Ukraine-meddling issue is comparable to the Russia-meddling one. And to the extent that the primary issue in the Russia one is not about Republican actions but about Russian ones, then the focus of the comparison to Ukraine would be not be the Democratic actions but the Ukrainian ones. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/23 "2017-01-12T18:44:02Z")
Now you’re confusing me. I don’t think the question of whether the RNC was hacked or not has jack-all to do with either case. I’m not sure why you brought it up in the first place. Let me recapitulate: 1. Virtually everyone now agrees that the Russians attacked the DNC. That’s unethical, illegal, wrong, bad, and a big deal. (What their intent was for doing so doesn’t change that conclusion – maybe it is a cherry on top or something.) 2. In the other case, it seems like the Ukrainian Embassy answered some questions about a Trump aide that were posed by someone who seems to have been working for themselves, but hoping to interest the DNC or Clinton campaign in whatever dirt she might dig up. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see that the Ukrainian Embassy did anything seriously wrong. Clearer? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/24 "2017-01-12T18:49:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Now you’re confusing me. > > I don’t think the question of whether the RNC was hacked or not has jack-all to do with either case. I’m not sure why you brought it up in the first place. > > Let me recapitulate: > > 1. Virtually everyone now agrees that the Russians attacked the DNC. That’s unethical, illegal, wrong, bad, and a big deal. (What their intent was for doing so doesn’t change that conclusion – maybe it is a cherry on top or something.) > > 2. In the other case, it seems like the Ukrainian Embassy answered some questions about a Trump aide that were posed by someone who seems to have been working for themselves, but hoping to interest the DNC or Clinton campaign in whatever dirt she might dig up. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see that the Ukrainian Embassy did anything seriously wrong. > > Clearer? 1. That someone was a DNC employee, and was paid around $400K for her services over the years. 2. Ukrainian governing party’s parliamentarians admitted publicly that their goal in releasing information was to prevent Trump from being elected. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/25 "2017-01-12T18:55:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Now you’re confusing me. > > I don’t think the question of whether the RNC was hacked or not has jack-all to do with either case. I’m not sure why you brought it up in the first place. > > Let me recapitulate: > > 1. Virtually everyone now agrees that the Russians attacked the DNC. That’s unethical, illegal, wrong, bad, and a big deal. (What their intent was for doing so doesn’t change that conclusion – maybe it is a cherry on top or something.) > > 2. In the other case, it seems like the Ukrainian Embassy answered some questions about a Trump aide that were posed by someone who seems to have been working for themselves, but hoping to interest the DNC or Clinton campaign in whatever dirt she might dig up. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see that the Ukrainian Embassy did anything seriously wrong. > > Clearer? I didn’t bring up whether the RNC was hacked. I brought up whether RNC employees/consultants were involved in the Russian government meddling. The point is that if the “big deal” about the Russian government meddling has little or nothing to do with whether the RNC was involved, then the question of to what extent the Ukrainian government meddling is comparable to the Russian meddling issue has similarly little or nothing to do with whether the DNC was involved. Since the context of the discussion here has been about the very issue of to what extent these two meddlings are comparable, I would think DNC involvement with the Ukrainian meddling or lack thereof is not a big factor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/26 "2017-01-12T19:09:36Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. That someone was a DNC employee, and was paid around $400K for her services over the years. > > 2. Ukrainian governing party’s parliamentarians admitted publicly that their goal in releasing information was to prevent Trump from being elected. And you believe them. Settles that. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/27 "2017-01-12T19:19:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Ukrainian governing party’s parliamentarians admitted publicly that their goal in releasing information was to prevent Trump from being elected. > > And you believe them. Settles that. Why wouldn’t I believe them when they clearly and publicly stated it? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/28 "2017-01-12T19:41:24Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. That someone was a DNC employee, and was paid around $400K for her services over the years. She was a DNC consultant, and it appears that the DNC wasn’t contracting with her to do this work, based on these parts of the story: > [@](#): > > The day after Manafort’s hiring was revealed, she briefed the DNC’s communications staff on Manafort, Trump and their ties to Russia, according to an operative familiar with the situation. > > A former DNC staffer described the exchange as an “informal conversation,” saying “‘briefing’ makes it sound way too formal,” and adding, “We were not directing or driving her work on this.” Yet, the former DNC staffer and the operative familiar with the situation agreed that with the DNC’s encouragement, Chalupa asked embassy staff to try to arrange an interview in which Poroshenko might discuss Manafort’s ties to Yanukovych… > > A DNC official stressed that Chalupa was a consultant paid to do outreach for the party’s political department, not a researcher. She undertook her investigations into Trump, Manafort and Russia on her own, and the party did not incorporate her findings in its dossiers on the subjects, the official said, stressing that the DNC had been building robust research books on Trump and his ties to Russia long before Chalupa began sounding alarms. … Chalupa left the DNC after the Democratic convention in late July to focus fulltime on her research into Manafort, Trump and Russia. > [@](#): > > Ukrainian governing party’s parliamentarians admitted publicly that their goal in releasing information was to prevent Trump from being elected. Where does the story say this? Can’t find it. Again, I think this activity by the Embassy is likely inappropriate, but my impression is that they were not acting on their own initiative to get that story out. My impression is that if Chapula hadn’t been asking engaging them, they wouldn’t have been trying to help. Again, open to correction here. > [@FP](#): > > I didn’t bring up whether the RNC was hacked. I brought up whether RNC employees/consultants were involved in the Russian government meddling. Whatever – I can’t see that the RNC has any bearing on the issue, one way or another. I still have no idea why you’re bringing up the RNC. Let me be clear: I don’t care about the RNC and I think the RNC sheds no light on anything relating to Russian hacking. > [@](#): > > The point is that if the “big deal” about the Russian government meddling has little or nothing to do with whether the RNC was involved, then the question of to what extent the Ukrainian government meddling is comparable to the Russian meddling issue has similarly little or nothing to do with whether the DNC was involved. If you think the role of the RNC needs to be compared to the role of the DNC in comparing the two cases, go ahead. I think it has no relevance for comparison purposes. The only questions in my mind are: What did the Russians do? and What did the Ukrainians do? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/29 "2017-01-12T19:44:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Whatever – I can’t see that the RNC has any bearing on the issue, one way or another. I still have no idea why you’re bringing up the RNC. Let me be clear: I don’t care about the RNC and I think the RNC sheds no light on anything relating to Russian hacking. > > If you think the role of the RNC needs to be compared to the role of the DNC in comparing the two cases, go ahead. I think it has no relevance for comparison purposes. The only questions in my mind are: What did the Russians do? and What did the Ukrainians do? I agree with you as to the “only questions”. I brought up the RNC only because you brought up the DNC, in the fourth paragraph of post #17. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/30 "2017-01-12T19:49:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Where does the story say this? Can’t find it. “At the time, Leshchenko suggested that his motivation was partly to undermine Trump. “For me, it was important to show not only the corruption aspect, but that he is [a] pro-Russian candidate who can break the geopolitical balance in the world,” Leshchenko told the Financial Times about two weeks after his news conference.” ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/31 "2017-01-12T21:52:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s like asking if I mind if a dog eats meat. If the meat is from a can of Alpo, I don’t really mind. If the meat is the fingers on my hand, I mind. The devil’s in the details. > > Do I mind if a country commits crimes in our country in order to influence an election? Yes. Do I mind if one of the only candidates for superpower influences our election? Yes. Do I mind if a country tries to install a puppet in our presidency? Yes. > > Do I mind if a country provides information to a political party that might be damaging to the opposition? Not by itself. Do I mind if a country, facing a very real military threat from an adjacent country, tries to prevent a puppet from being installed as our president? Not by itself. > > I’m not crazy about Ukraine’s actions, but they’re of a whole different nature from Russia’s. This sort of false equivalence is a great way to muddy the waters and try to get people not to pay attention to the\*\* very real threat Russia poses to our democracy\*\*, and you shouldn’t help the propagandists who support such techniques. With all due respect…WE pose a much greater threat with: 1. It’s not a democracy as we all know. I’m not quibbling, we knew it was an electoral system. 2. The two party system and all the BS that goes with it. “A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump (duh) not voting is a vote for Trump, voting third party is a vote for Trump”…really mom? JFC…sorry, i went off on a rant there. and finally…I KNEW most “liberals” were LINOs but man…this is ridiculous. When i can’t tell the difference between the parties anymore… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/32 "2017-01-12T22:46:49Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > With all due respect…WE pose a much greater threat with: > > 1. It’s not a democracy as we all know. I’m not quibbling, we knew it was an electoral system. > > 2. The two party system and all the BS that goes with it. “A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump (duh) not voting is a vote for Trump, voting third party is a vote for Trump”…really mom? JFC…sorry, i went off on a rant there. > > and finally…I KNEW most “liberals” were LINOs but man…this is ridiculous. When i can’t tell the difference between the parties anymore… This post is pretty incoherent. Are you under some misapprehension that an electoral system may not be characterized as a democracy? Are you also under some misapprehension that if I object to a superpower meddling in our election through illegal actions, with at best the candidate they’re doing this for turning a willfully blind eye to their meddling, I cannot also find the two-party system deeply flawed? Your LINO business is just namecalling and may safely be ignored. Whatever your objections to what I said are, it’d behoove you to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/33 "2017-01-13T03:43:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This post is pretty incoherent. Are you under some misapprehension that an electoral system may not be characterized as a democracy? > > Are you also under some misapprehension that if I object to a superpower meddling in our election through illegal actions, with at best the candidate they’re doing this for turning a willfully blind eye to their meddling, I cannot also find the two-party system deeply flawed? > > Your LINO business is just namecalling and may safely be ignored. > > Whatever your objections to what I said are, it’d behoove you to be more specific. “Objections”?? I simply posit that America is a much greater danger to itself than Russia is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/34 "2017-01-13T03:50:43Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > “Objections”?? > > I simply posit that America is a much greater danger to itself than Russia is. Well that sure clears it up. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/35 "2017-01-13T03:51:41Z")
This whole thread is ridiculous. It’s not a serious comparison, it’s just remotely done in good faith, all it is is deflection. Russia committing espionage is the same as someone legally asking Ukraine a couple question? Give me a fucking break. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/36 "2017-01-13T15:13:41Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > This whole thread is ridiculous. It’s not a serious comparison, it’s just remotely done in good faith, all it is is deflection. > > Russia committing espionage is the same as someone legally asking Ukraine a couple question? Give me a fucking break. For real. There’s this desperate sense among some members of the right that all Trump’s corruptions and lies and foreign entanglements must be forgiven if something–anything!–on the Democratic side looks remotely like them in any way. That’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/37 "2017-01-13T16:14:31Z")
The closest Ukranian action that’s comparable to the Russian suspicions is perhaps when the Manafort “secret ledger” was released. But even that is rather clearly a Ukranian domestic matter as well since they were investigating corruption of the previous regime. It is pretty silly to equate these episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/38 "2017-01-13T16:20:14Z")
Again, that depends on whether the entry on Manafort is real. If it was forged, then that’s something else altogether. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/39 "2017-01-13T16:54:28Z")
I didn’t see anyone suggest it was forged. Manafort’s defence was simply that he didn’t recieve any money and the Ukranian investigators admitted they had no evidence that he had and they couldn’t verify signatures in the ledger. Regardless, I think one instance of a forged ledger is still a completely different animal than an expertly run covert hacking, phishing and data dump campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903/40 "2017-01-13T17:09:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I didn’t see anyone suggest it was forged. Then you must have not read the article linked in the OP of this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukrainian-meddling-in-us-elections-with-dncs-help/776903.md?page=3)