# Ultimate Fate of Cryogenics Movement **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 22, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974 "2022-02-22T23:02:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/21 "2022-02-23T15:57:00Z")
It will vanish when humanity does. In the meantime it will continue to draw in those with a lot of money, a strong fear of death/oblivion and an unfounded trust in scientific breakthroughs for thawing frozen humans into anything other than mush. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/22 "2022-02-23T16:31:26Z")
Just another voice echoing the sentiment: every last person frozen on the chance they can be revived will end up a pile of wet gooey flesh with frost burn (well, not exactly that). Here’s an interesting, sort-of-off-topic article about [bionic eye tech created by a company that ultimately went under](https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete). People in cryogenic freeze are like these bionic eyes . . . completely dependent upon the organizational and financial solvency of the private institutions they’ve entrusted themselves to. Even if there’s some distant future in which the tech is there to thaw frozen people back to life, what are the odds that you picked a freeze-o-matic company that’s actually still going to be around keeping your body in tip-top shape at that point? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/23 "2022-02-23T17:41:22Z")
Apropos: > **[Mistakes Were Made - This American Life](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/354/mistakes-were-made)** > > Freezing dead people so scientists can reanimate them in the future is a lot harder than it sounds. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/24 "2022-02-23T17:53:57Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > From the article: > > > [@](#): > > > > They are complex molecular machines made of thousands of proteins and specialized lipid structures. It is the precise molecular composition of synapses and the membranes they are embedded in that confers their properties. The presence or absence of a synapse, which is all that current connectomics methods tell us > > I read this as: we cannot yet map a brain with sufficient precision to restore it. But I don’t see any claim in the article that precludes the physical possibility. The physical configuration of the synapses may be preserved, but that’s useless when all the subtle chemical information around and between the cells is lost. If you pump a brain full of cryoprotectants (like antifreeze) and cool it with liquid nitrogen, those “thousands of proteins and specialized lipid structures”, varying greatly on a cellular scale, are irretrievably destroyed. In principle, technologies may be developed in future for preserving that information, through it would need different methods for different cells and different areas of the brain – but with the current methods being used, that information is simply destroyed. That information does not exist anymore, and no technology can get back what doesn’t exist. The brain’s metabolic processes are now history. It’s off the twig. It’s kicked the bucket. It’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined the bleeding choir invisible. This is an ex-brain! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/25 "2022-02-23T17:59:51Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I read this as: we cannot yet map a brain with sufficient precision to restore it. But I don’t see any claim in the article that precludes the physical possibility. Is there a reason to be _sure_ that no future technology will enable doing so? I don’t think so. There are some rational people that think we may be able to fully map consciousness one day. The improvements to brain scanning are allowing us to get more and more detailed scans, and computing power is becoming more and more powerful. There may be a time in the future when the brain scans are so precise and the computers so powerful that we can map the brain completely enough to replicate it in a computer. However, that would likely only be possible with a living brain. A frozen brain would likely be missing many of the key attributes needed to digitize the person. Even with perfect scanning, it would likely be impossible to restore the consciousness of a person from a frozen brain. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/26 "2022-02-23T18:01:14Z")
Seems like putting the cart before the horse. Even if it’s possible to perfectly preserve a human body, or head, for an indefinite period of time, you still haven’t “cured death.” Any idiot can put a corpse in the freezer. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/27 "2022-02-23T18:45:32Z")
As little faith as I have in Science eventually being able to revive a frozen brain, I have even less faith that any of these companies are capable of keeping a corpsicle safe until that happens. There’s a better chance your body would be auctioned off to some 23rd Century eccentric billionaire who wants a 200 year old dead body to keep as a lawn ornament or serve for dinner or have sex with. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/28 "2022-02-23T18:55:56Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > This is very much like saying that “I doubt that an avacado can do my income taxes.” The idea is so utterly not even right that there should be no room for doubt. Some people don’t believe in souls, and there is the whole nature vs nurture argument [which I am ambivalent about - but I can see both sides of the argument though I lean towards nature rather than nurture other wise my friend Pat should be a child abuser as her father abused she and her siblings for their early lives until at least she got old enough to leave home. And why Ted Bundy, who by all accounts had a good childhood turned into a serial killer …] If someone cloned me, my soul is not in my DNA, whatever popped out of the womb or whatever would be a human, but it wouldn’t be _me_. > [@Senegoid](#): > > Our programmer asks them the usual questions (Where am I? What’s going on? _When_ am I? etc.) They explain to him what has happened, and then mention: “… And it says here in your papers that you know COBOL!” ROTFLMAO! > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > As to the OP, I think in a hundred, two hundred years, when everyone who knew the corpsicles is long past, the facilities will be quietly shut down and the bodies disposed of. The more ethical places will bury or cremate them, the less ethical will dump them in New Jersey, next to the mob bodies. CSI:NNY will have an interesting episode out of it. I think that would make a great movie - or a halloween episode for one of the CSI shows, maybe whatshis name [red haired sunglasses dude] wakes up from a dream where he and his crew are in the future and that is what happens =) ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/29 "2022-02-23T19:02:06Z")
Meat. They’re made out of meat. Frozen, freezer burned meat. Apologies to Terry Bisson. [They’re Made out of Meat (mit.edu)](https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/30 "2022-02-23T19:09:46Z")
Head Museum! [![](https://www.looper.com/img/gallery/what-you-didnt-notice-in-the-hall-of-presidents-in-futurama/why-is-there-an-extra-head-in-the-hall-of-presidents-1644183784.jpg) ](https://www.looper.com/img/gallery/what-you-didnt-notice-in-the-hall-of-presidents-in-futurama/why-is-there-an-extra-head-in-the-hall-of-presidents-1644183784.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/31 "2022-02-23T19:21:02Z")
> [@digs](#): > > \*which also starts with “You know all that money you invested in stocks, so you’d have a nest egg when revived? Yeah, we passed laws saying dead people couldn’t own money, so you’re broke. You either work for us now, or it’s back in the freezer for you.” Don’t forget Niven’s ARM stories, where they decided just to just “break up” the corpsicles for their organs. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/32 "2022-02-23T20:17:30Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > A few hundred years ago, you could say that there’s literally no way for sand to do math, but a computer is basically exquisitely arranged sand. > > Could some future technology engineer plants that can do your taxes? I have no idea, but, again, I don’t see any physical constraints that would make it impossible to do so. Fine. Make up whatever “this will never happen” analogy that you want that will survive your nitpicking. But no matter what, the statement “I doubt that it would recreate me” will remain silly _because there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that a tissue culture clone will not be you_. That isn’t how biology works. Your memories are not stored in tissue samples. A. Clone. Will. Not. Be. You. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/33 "2022-02-23T20:26:44Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Your memories are not stored in tissue samples. A. Clone. Will. Not. Be. You. Or, as I have put forth many times before, if it were possible to create a clone of yourself from a few cells, and said clone had _all_ of your memories, would you willingly submit to being killed to make room for the new “you”? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/34 "2022-02-23T20:29:00Z")
Right. Same goes with an “upload”. Why should I care about making something that thinks that it is me _when it isn’t me_? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/35 "2022-02-23T20:44:53Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I think that would make a great movie I’ve got it. The year: 2999 The Place: New New York A bunch of recently-unfrozen bodies are found in a dump. One of them was MURDERED! A thousand years ago. The CSIs track the evidence, go through the records, and find the killer. Who is currently frozen, in a different facility. As there is no technology (even in 2999) to thaw and reanimate him, they debate the ethics. Is the killer dead enough, or do they have to revive him in order to get justice? Do they flag the person "when you can reanimate him, here is the evidence to convict him of murder. " What if they have the death penalty in that even more distant future? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/36 "2022-02-23T22:10:06Z")
Gene Wolfe wrote a great story Doctor Of Death Island, about a man who was convicted of murder and sentenced to life. (non spoiler) He dies but has himself frozen. Then they thaw him, cure him, and tell him to prepare to serve the rest of his life sentence. IIRC that’s the first page or so. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/37 "2022-02-23T22:28:20Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Your memories are not stored in tissue samples. A. Clone. Will. Not. Be. You. I don’t think anyone has argued that it would be. I certainly haven’t. I think it’s _possible_ that a sufficiently advanced scan of brain structure could create an emulated consciousness of the mind that used to inhabit that brain. Maybe it never will be, but I don’t see how we could know for sure from here. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or, as I have put forth many times before, if it were possible to create a clone of yourself from a few cells, and said clone had _all_ of your memories, would you willingly submit to being killed to make room for the new “you”? If I was dead already, as cryogenically frozen heads/bodies are? Sure. Fait accompli. > [@filmore](#): > > There may be a time in the future when the brain scans are so precise and the computers so powerful that we can map the brain completely enough to replicate it in a computer. However, that would likely only be possible with a living brain. A frozen brain would likely be missing many of the key attributes needed to digitize the person. Even with perfect scanning, it would likely be impossible to restore the consciousness of a person from a frozen brain. I agree that simulating a frozen brain will likely be more difficult. I don’t think we can reason at all about whether it will be possible or not. We simply don’t have enough information about how the brain works or how precise future scanning technology might be. Going back to my mammoth example, it’s a lot easier to extract DNA from living organisms than frozen mammoth bodies, but the latter may still be possible. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > but with the current methods being used, that information is simply destroyed. That information does not exist anymore, and no technology can get back what doesn’t exist. To be clear: I think you are very likely correct. No one who’s head is currently frozen will ever be revived. I’m simply not willing to say it’s 100%, because just as some of today’s technology would be considered totally impossible and absurd in the past, I expect the same will be true of future technology. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/38 "2022-02-24T00:52:29Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > > Your memories are not stored in tissue samples. A. Clone. Will. Not. Be. You. > > I don’t think anyone has argued that it would be. I certainly haven’t. The person that I was originally replying to said: > however I would not mind leaving a DNA sample towards the future. I doubt that it would recreate me if they cloned it I was simply saying that “doubt” should be taken as an understatement, like saying that I doubt that YU Scuti would fit in my pants pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/39 "2022-02-24T01:07:07Z")
> **Ultimate Fate of Cryogenics Movement** Probably to be put on ice and revived when it can be revitalized. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974/40 "2022-02-24T01:16:59Z")
I understand now. Thanks for the clarification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimate-fate-of-cryogenics-movement/959974.md?page=3)