# Ultimately, is civilization maladaptive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330 "2012-08-13T01:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/21 "2012-08-18T20:44:33Z")
\*\* > [@greenslime1951](#): > > What economists call “rational self-interest” is _precisely_ that–an action or set of actions that lead to the optimal outcome for the actor. The question of what is the optimal outcome for a particular person is subjective. Economists may believe that one outcome is optimal for me, while I believe that an entirely different outcome is optimal. If so, then my definition of “rational self-interest” would be different from the one used by economists. For example, if economists believe that it’s always in my self-interest to have as much money and material goods as possible, while I believe that it’s sometimes in my self-interest to have less, that would be one source of disagreement. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > The studies I mentioned were done, as the vast majority of scientific studies are, with far more rigor than you suggest. When a scientific study states a conclusion, that conclusion is backed up with hard data and rigorous analysis. > > Your “german” (you meant “germane”) question isn’t answerable because there is no one specific gene linked to brain development, let alone the development of a single cognitive process. And we’re still in the process of mapping those genes. However, it isn’t necessary to know the specific gene responsible for a characteristic to know that that characteristic is genetic. Thus far you haven’t specifically mentioned any study. If you wanted to convince me that “humans are hardwired with various cognitive biases (too numerous to list here) that enhanced our chances of survival on the savannah eons ago”, the obvious thing to do would be to give proper citations (authors, title, and publication information) for scientific papers which definitely establish that to be true. Alternatively, you could just link to the papers. I’ve never seen any such papers, despite reading many books on the topic and participating in many threads on the topic. I have seen a few papers more or less as I described: a scientist surveys a few American college students, finds that a majority of them have a certain taste or exhibit a certain behavior, and concludes that all human beings are hardwired to behave that way by their genes. I have never seen any paper on the subject more rigorous than that, so if you’d like to provide one, I’d be happy to read it. For that matter, I can’t really understand how one would conclude that a certain behavior is caused by genes without being able to name the genes that cause it. > [@](#): > > The difference between the scientists and the rest of the public is that they are aware of the biases we all share and thus have methods to overcome those biases. One such method is the aforementioned academic/scientific rigor, plus peer review of practically everything that is written in the scientific community. If all human beings are hardwired with certain cognitive biases, then to me it seems fairly obvious that peer review won’t eliminate those biases, and may well make the problem worse. Imagine for example that humanity was hardwired with a bias to perceive red objects as blue. If both an author and a peer reviewer agreed that a particular object was blue, that would do nothing to solve the problem, since it might well be that they had both fallen under the influence of the same cognitive bias. That’s a goofy example, but the same sort of thing could affect research on any other topic. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/22 "2012-08-18T21:47:24Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Many science fiction writers have made this almost a trope, in that aliens that encounter humankind react to us with horror and disgust (and often an urge to wipe us out, as in Clarke/Baxter’s recent trilogy or the movie, “Prometheus”). I don’t know what the accepted rules are on these things but I’ve been carefully avoiding spoilers for that movie and you’ve just given a major plot point away. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/23 "2012-08-18T22:51:51Z")
I don’t like the OP’s question, because when I try to look at it objectively, I can only conclude “we’re doomed”. We use more and more powerful tools and are indeed prone to misuse them, be it deliberatly or accidentally. Of course, it could take several centuries, but that’s the blink of an eye even simply by comparison with how long we’ve existed as a specie. I expect we won’t make ourselves go completely extinct, at least. Now I’m going to forget the question and think about our bright short term future instead. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/24 "2012-08-18T23:13:04Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Sigh. > > The studies I mentioned were done, as the vast majority of scientific studies are, with far more rigor than you suggest. When a scientific study states a conclusion, that conclusion is backed up with hard data and rigorous analysis. > > **Your “german” (you meant “germane”) question isn’t answerable because there is no one specific gene linked to brain development, let alone the development of a single cognitive process. And we’re still in the process of mapping those genes. However, it isn’t necessary to know the specific gene responsible for a characteristic to know that that characteristic is genetic.** > > The difference between the scientists and the rest of the public is that they are aware of the biases we all share and thus have methods to overcome those biases. One such method is the aforementioned academic/scientific rigor, plus peer review of practically everything that is written in the scientific community. I know you don’t believe in it, but it’s true nonetheless. > > What economists call “rational self-interest” is _precisely_ that–an action or set of actions that lead to the optimal outcome for the actor. Whether or not those actions are taken is another question: conventional economic theory stated that people would take such actions, all other things being equal; behavioral economics suggests that sometimes, they do not. Oh for the love of Pete - _ **sigh** _ yourself. :rolleyes: You have no evidence whatsoever for the bolded part of your quote and if history is any predictor you never will present any evidence. Once again you confuse your beliefs for fact. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/25 "2012-08-18T23:33:17Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Oh for the love of Pete - _ **sigh** _ yourself. :rolleyes: > > You have no evidence whatsoever for the bolded part of your quote and if history is any predictor you never will present any evidence. Once again you confuse your beliefs for fact. There is not much that is controversial about the part of the quote you commented on (the wording in the last sentence is terrible and not what is meant by genetic). I doubt there is a single human characteristic where its variability is not partially contributed to by genetic variation. There is also not a single human trait where environmental variability has no relationship with the trait’s variability. As a test, name a human cognitive trait and I think I can find the evidence necessary to show that there is a genetic component to its variation. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/26 "2012-08-18T23:40:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > There is not much that is controversial about the part of the quote you commented on (the wording in the last sentence is terrible and not what is meant by genetic). I doubt there is a single human characteristic where its variability is not partially contributed to by genetic variation. There is also not a single human trait where environmental variability has no relationship with the trait’s variability. > > As a test, name a human cognitive trait and I think I can find the evidence necessary to show that there is a genetic component to its variation. There’s proof of genetic influence of a sense of humor or optimism? I’d like to see those cites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/27 "2012-08-19T00:12:32Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > There’s proof of genetic influence of a sense of humor or optimism? I’d like to see those cites. All behaviors ultimately have a genetic component. Else you wouldn’t see different behaviors in different species. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/28 "2012-08-19T00:43:35Z")
I went to a family reunion many years ago on my mothers Italian side. She had 6 brothers and each one of those had about 5 or more sons. Every single one of the men at the picnic from this side of the family including myself left one corner of their sandwictch uneaten. My father picked up on this after getting on me and my brothers for always leaving one small corner of our sandwich or burger or hot dog. I have always wondered about this as it seemed obviously genetic somehow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/29 "2012-08-19T00:46:22Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I went to a family reunion many years ago on my mothers Italian side. She had 6 brothers and each one of those had about 5 or more sons. Every single one of the men at the picnic from this side of the family including myself left one corner of their sandwictch uneaten. My father picked up on this after getting on me and my brothers for always leaving one small corner of our sandwich or burger or hot dog. I have always wondered about this as it seemed obviously genetic somehow. The only genetic component that behavior probably has is related to imitation. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/30 "2012-08-19T00:56:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > All behaviors ultimately have a genetic component. Else you wouldn’t see different behaviors in different species. True, and should be convincing enough on its own, but I think the doubt people express that ‘trait x is genetic’ is a malformed question: “Is it really true that in humans, variability in behavior is partially due to genetic variation?”. So a doubt like **zoid** ’s is most fairly addressed with the literature on humans. > [@zoid](#): > > There’s proof of genetic influence of a sense of humor or optimism? I’d like to see those cites. Sense of humor: [Genetic correlations between sense of humor and emotional intelligence in twins. (PDF)](http://www.psychometriclab.com/admins/files/jid-%20tei.pdf) [Genetic correlations between sense of humor and personality traits. (PDF)](http://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/view/206/105) Two off the top weaknesses of these studies: They’re from the same lab or at least the same department (always makes me uncomfortable when I don’t find an independent replication; on the other hand this view of humor and these studies are relatively new). Also, I am not linking to studies you have to pay to read. Optimism: [Genetic and environmental influences on optimism. (PDF)](http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/Mosing_BehavGenet597-604_Nov2009.pdf) Now these are heritability studies and there are caveats, but none so damaging that you cannot regard the data as evidence of a relationship between genetic variation and behavioral variation. If you really want to see something about specific genes and specific cognitive behaviors then you will need to focus on something that could be measured in nonhuman animals. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/31 "2012-08-19T02:30:43Z")
It could not be imitation because we never spent any time around that side of the family. That doesn’t sound like a behavior that would be imitated anyway. When I get to the last bite in a sandwich I just have no desire to eat it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/32 "2012-08-19T02:39:00Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > It could not be imitation because we never spent any time around that side of the family. That doesn’t sound like a behavior that would be imitated anyway. When I get to the last bite in a sandwich I just have no desire to eat it. Well, if you think there is gene for not eating one corner of a sandwich, maybe you could do some research and publish a paper. There’s probably a Nobel Prize in Biology with your name on it! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/33 "2012-08-19T02:42:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t like the OP’s question, because when I try to look at it objectively, I can only conclude “we’re doomed”. We use more and more powerful tools and are indeed prone to misuse them, be it deliberately or accidentally. > > Of course, it could take several centuries, but that’s the blink of an eye even simply by comparison with how long we’ve existed as a specie. Well if it takes several centuries, there’s a decent chance that we’ll have a few space colonies up and running. Which implies that the end of one ecosystem won’t be the end of all ecosystems. And speaking personally, if we can’t manage to avoid extinction over the next 100 years, well that’s just pathetic: it’s not clear whether the loss of such a lame species matters especially, at least from a less than wholly anthrocentric POV. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/34 "2012-08-19T02:46:37Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well if it takes several centuries, there’s a decent chance that we’ll have a few space colonies up and running. Which implies that the end of one ecosystem won’t be the end of all ecosystems. > > And speaking personally, if we can’t manage to avoid extinction over the next 100 years, well that’s just pathetic: it’s not clear whether the loss of such a lame species matters especially, at least from a less than wholly anthrocentric POV. It would be really difficult to kill all humans at this point unless we destroyed the entire planet. And that’s not as easy to do as some might think. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/35 "2012-08-19T03:16:57Z")
John, just an observation that I thought very strange myself. I think I had it slightly off though. I believe it was my uncles who left their corners and the sons of my aunts. So it seems to be carried by the females. It has been over 50 years since I had this conversation at the reunion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/36 "2012-08-19T03:20:24Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > John, just an observation that I thought very strange myself. I think I had it slightly off though. I believe it was my uncles who left their corners and the sons of my aunts. So it seems to be carried by the females. It has been over 50 years since I had this conversation at the reunion. No problem with the observation. I was taking issue with this: > [@](#): > > I have always wondered about this as it seemed obviously genetic somehow. It is obviously not genetic. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/37 "2012-08-19T04:20:05Z")
Besides some years breeding bird dogs and racing pigeons I have no expertise in genetics but how else could it be explained. I have very often seen quirks in dogs and pigeons that would accurately tip me off to a trait I was either avoiding or desiring. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/38 "2012-08-19T05:08:27Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Besides some years breeding bird dogs and racing pigeons I have no expertise in genetics but how else could it be explained. Faulty memory. Imitation. Both of those are more likely than a genetic cause. But like I said, if you think it’s genetic, then burden of proof is on you. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/39 "2012-08-19T05:31:14Z")
**John Mace** - how do you reconcile these to snippets: ## a) > [@zoid](#): > > There’s proof of genetic influence of a sense of humor or optimism? I’d like to see those cites. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > All behaviors ultimately have a genetic component. Else you wouldn’t see different behaviors in different species. * * * ## b) > [@badger5149](#): > > Besides some years breeding bird dogs and racing pigeons I have no expertise in genetics but how else could it be explained. I have very often seen quirks in dogs and pigeons that would accurately tip me off to a trait I was either avoiding or desiring. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Faulty memory. > Imitation. > > Both of those are more likely than a genetic cause. But like I said, if you think it’s genetic, then burden of proof is on you. * * * Just to be clear - I advocate the stance you have taken in the second example. I believe there are numerous traits that are not genetic at all but learned. Speech for example has been shown to not present in individuals without a conducive environment (feral children are the example I’m thinking of). ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330/40 "2012-08-19T05:40:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > \*\* > If all human beings are hardwired with certain cognitive biases, then to me it seems fairly obvious that peer review won’t eliminate those biases, and may well make the problem worse. Imagine for example that humanity was hardwired with a bias to perceive red objects as blue. If both an author and a peer reviewer agreed that a particular object was blue, that would do nothing to solve the problem, since it might well be that they had both fallen under the influence of the same cognitive bias. That’s a goofy example, but the same sort of thing could affect research on any other topic. That would be true if those cognitive biases were spread across the population for any given phenomenon–but they’re not. The specific cognitive bias that needs to be overcome in published academic work is confirmation bias, where the originator/holder of an idea will tend to overweight evidence that appears to confirm his idea, and discount evidence that appears to contradict it. Obviously, peer review will insert an element of objectivity, since the reviewers will have no personal stake in the idea. Also, it’s untrue that the effects of the hardwiring cannot be overcome. For instance, there’s the cognitive bias called “fundamental attribution error,” where we interpret another’s actions as due to personality characteristics and completely ignore the _context_ of those actions (this happens _all_ the time on these boards). If, in our social interactions, we remain aware of our own tendencies toward this bias, we can stop ourselves and modify our snap-evaluations of others’ behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ultimately-is-civilization-maladaptive/631330.md?page=3)