# Um, Czarcasm, WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 4, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308 "2009-11-04T18:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/21 "2009-11-04T22:02:11Z")
Oh man, I was getting my jollies reading that thread. Can he open a thread called “Things British people say/do that Americans don’t,” and we can have back at poor cockney impersonations, and comments about how much the British whine? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/22 "2009-11-04T22:47:44Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > At least one moderator acting in total violation of what one would expect of the moderators here. From the rest of your post, I’m assuming you’re talking about **Marley23** , not **Czarcasm**. In his (Marley’s) defense, that type of post wasn’t that unreasonable before mod discussion got moved to only being allowed in ATMB, and the ATMB mods’ subsequent decision to set a fairly strict bar on how much criticism / snarkiness is allowed here. I don’t think what he said was out of line for a moderator, _except_ for the fact that **Contrapuntal** can’t really respond in kind. Not just that he can’t snap back in this thread, but it’s not even clear that that he can Pit **Marley23** for it, since it’s not clear that **Marley23** wasn’t making these comments as a mod instead of a poster. But **Marley23** didn’t create the situation, and I got no sense that he was using it to take shots at **Contrapuntal** knowing he couldn’t respond. I think saying his actions were “in total violation of what one would expect of the moderators” is way too harsh. As things currently stand, it does seem like the only fair thing to do is for the mods to curtail negative comments toward other posters in threads asking about moderator actions or board policy, _even when said comments would be within the rules of ATMB_, unless they explicitly label them as speaking only as a poster. Which I don’t like, personally, because I think it’s a terrible idea to constrain how volunteer mods can post, but it is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/23 "2009-11-04T23:04:27Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Oh man, I was getting my jollies reading that thread. Can he open a thread called “Things British people say/do that Americans don’t,” and we can have back at poor cockney impersonations, and comments about how much the British whine? Righty-ho? And shall he put it back in what you colonials refer to as the bebeque pit? At which time we could hurl further pithy witticisms? ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/24 "2009-11-04T23:28:57Z")
Is Marley the only one allowed to be a dick in ATMB, or can we all have a go? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/25 "2009-11-05T00:16:46Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Is Marley the only one allowed to be a dick in ATMB, or can we all have a go? Let’s test it. You start, I’ll be right behind you on this one (if my post is delayed don’t worry, just keep firing away, I’ll jump in real soon). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/26 "2009-11-05T00:26:28Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Is Marley the only one allowed to be a dick in ATMB, or can we all have a go? I think that what you meant to say is that his posts have a dickish tone to them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/27 "2009-11-05T01:26:02Z")
God, what a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/28 "2009-11-05T02:26:34Z")
To clarify, I was asking if it was possible for my friend to travel to Cuba _legally_, and someone quickly provided [a link to the appropriate rules and regs](http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/cuba/cuba.shtml), which I passed on to him tonight after work. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/29 "2009-11-05T04:59:59Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I don’t see why either thread had to be closed, personally. IIRC, the rule against starting board wars started when people _actually started_ board wars, i.e. flooding other message boards in response to links posted here. Now, we’re shutting down discussions simply on the possible, remote chance that they’ll start a board war? That seems silly to me. > > Same with inciting illegal activity. Obviously, we don’t the boards to be used for people to arrange to sell drugs or build pipe bombs or what have you – does that have to translate into forbidding discussion of anything and everything illegal? People break the law all the time, from speeding to smoking pot to cheating on their taxes to copying mp3s and software from their friends without paying for it. While the board should not endorse illegal activity, I don’t see the harm in taking a neutral stance on allowing discussions to proceed that are not going to cause immediate and/or direct harm and just letting people hash it out themselves. > > It’s easy to let rules turn into dogma, where they have to enforced for their own sake, but I think it’s worth remembering why the rules were put into place and focusing on the spirit of the law, rather than getting bogged down by technicalities. I agree with this. It’s been getting worse. There was a thread on how to make stinkbombs that got closed, which I thought was a bit silly. I even understand (though I find it laughable at best) the idea that the board could face liability, but there are all sorts of threads about dangerous activities, or about things that could be turned to unlawful purposes, and those don’t get closed – it seems to depend on the whim of whoever is moderating that day. Though I must say, I disagree about the technicalities part – there is something to be said for having bright-line rules as opposed to the seemingly arbitrary whims of thread cops and cranky mods. (BTW, there is a bit of undeserved snark in this thread. You know who you are.) ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/30 "2009-11-05T09:02:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > God, what a mess. Amen to that. I was recently visiting another board where the theme seems to be ‘have fun - enjoy yourselves, but be responsible’. That has brought home to me just how bitter things can get here. Having too many rules and too much moderation can be as bad as a free for all. Posting - and, I guess, moderation - can end up being such an effort here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/31 "2009-11-05T12:59:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To clarify, I was asking if it was possible for my friend to travel to Cuba _legally_, and someone quickly provided [a link to the appropriate rules and regs](http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/cuba/cuba.shtml), which I passed on to him tonight after work. That’s fine, but **Curtis Lemay** was asking how to do something legally as well. That was the point of his mentioning specifically that it was being done as a _joke_ - nothing illegal. And since we don’t even know what other board he was talking about, it seems rather premature to assume that having another identity there is trolling. For heaven’s sake, I still have an e-mail from a board spun off from the SDMB inviting me to set up a sock account for Halloween as a sort of costume. I believe **Giraffe** will back me up on that, if you require a cite. Travel to Cuba for a US citizen is much more likely to be illegal than creating a joke account on another board is. **Curtis Lemay** made his intentions clear. Nowhere in **Czarcasm** ’s thread does he make any mention of his desire to get into Cuba legally. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/32 "2009-11-05T13:01:04Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > Amen to that. > > I was recently visiting another board where the theme seems to be ‘have fun - enjoy yourselves, but be responsible’. That has brought home to me just how bitter things can get here. Having too many rules and too much moderation can be as bad as a free for all. Posting - and, I guess, moderation - can end up being such an effort here. You make a good point, and an excellent comparison. Horse riders will recognize this analogy: a horse that is unfamiliar with its rider might behave in upredictable ways, regardless of how the rider handles the reins; however, even a horse that you’ve ridden for years and years, if you yank on the reins harshly or in ways that pull him all over the place will react just as unpredictably. I prefer the old and simple “Don’t be a jerk”. And while I realize that mods will catch flak for making judgment calls (although nowadays the only flak they CAN catch is very mild — here in ATMB), so what. Even with rules, judgment calls are questioned. So why complicate matters with layers of rules? Don’t forget: “Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum.” (popularly attributed to William of Ockham) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/33 "2009-11-05T13:12:08Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Same with inciting illegal activity. Obviously, we don’t the boards to be used for people to arrange to sell drugs or build pipe bombs or what have you – does that have to translate into forbidding discussion of anything and everything illegal? People break the law all the time, from speeding to smoking pot to cheating on their taxes to copying mp3s and software from their friends without paying for it. While the board should not endorse illegal activity, I don’t see the harm in taking a neutral stance on allowing discussions to proceed that are not going to cause immediate and/or direct harm and just letting people hash it out themselves. You may not see the harm, but the corporate lawyers disagreed with you. When the SDMBs were first set up, The READER’s lawyers required a distinction between legal avoidance vs illegal evasion. For example, it is perfectly OK to discuss legal ways of traveling to Cuba, or reducing your taxes, or obtaining marijuana, or downloading mp3s. But, it is NOT permitted to suggest illegal ways of traveling to Cuba, or lying on your tax forms, or obtaining marijuana, etc. Had the Cuba thread been limited to suggestions within the law (getting State Dept OK), that would have been fine, and it was reasonable for **Czarcasm** (or anyone) to open such a thread. Once people started suggesting illegal ways to obtain Cuban currency, the thread was closed. That people cheat and break the law all the time is irrelevant. We don’t want the news coverage at their trial to say that they learned how at the Straight Dope Messages Boards and anyone can do it. The “neutral stance” that you suggest is EXACTLY what we’ve always done here… as long as the discussion remains about legal means. Discussion of the law, and how to work within it, is OK. Discussion of how to escape being caught or how to violate the law, is not. Similarly, discussion of whether a law should be changed, and how to change it within the system, that’s all OK. Discussion of illegal activities to oppose a law is not. Example: OK: “Should we try to change my state’s laws on same-sex marriage?” Not OK: “Throw firebombs at the local church to show how we oppose it’s position on same-sex marriage.” And this is exactly how we have been moderating over the years. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/34 "2009-11-05T13:17:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s fine, but Curtis Lemay was asking how to do something legally as well. That was the point of his mentioning specifically that it was being done as a joke - nothing illegal. And since we don’t even know what other board he was talking about, it seems rather premature to assume that having another identity there is trolling. For heaven’s sake, I still have an e-mail from a board spun off from the SDMB inviting me to set up a sock account for Halloween as a sort of costume. **Curtis** ’s thread was closed because we didn’t want to be involved trolling on another board. That’s got NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with legality/illegality. Cheese and chalk, methinks. The question of whether his joke would be considered trolling: yeah, that’s a judgement call. Based on moderator past interaction we him, we were uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/35 "2009-11-05T13:19:21Z")
What was the evidence that led you to conclude that pretending to be British on another board was trolling? As mentioned, there is another closely related board that specifically invited its members to do so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/36 "2009-11-05T14:49:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What was the evidence that led you to conclude that pretending to be British on another board was trolling? As mentioned, there is another closely related board that specifically invited its members to do so. > > Regards, > Shodan A. Because they ignored my post to the thread, talking about how he was most likely referring to the sock hop at Giraffe’s board. B. Because I dared mention that board allowing their posters to have fun, rather than being jerks about the rules. Take your pick. ETA: Left out the whole treating Curtis differently than other posters because some think he is troll. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/37 "2009-11-05T14:52:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What was the evidence that led you to conclude that pretending to be British on another board was trolling? The notion that he’s trolling [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11729496&postcount=74) might have something to do with it. Note: I’m not calling **Curtis** a troll; just stating that others have planted the seed of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/38 "2009-11-05T14:58:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What was the evidence that led you to conclude that pretending to be British on another board was trolling? As mentioned, there is another closely related board that specifically invited its members to do so. > > Regards, > Shodan More to the point, I think, is why the SDMB staff is attempting to moderate other boards. Some boards do not even have rules against so-called “trolling”. Some, in fact, encourage it. (Domebo comes to mind.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/39 "2009-11-05T15:12:48Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > The notion that he’s trolling [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11729496&postcount=74) might have something to do with it. > > Note: I’m not calling **Curtis** a troll; just stating that others have planted the seed of possibility. Precisely the problem. Mods should not take a stance on that issue. And they usually don’t. I don’t know how many posters have been accused of being trolls in the Pit, and I’ve never seen the mods take a stance on those. I’ll be honest. I’m biased. I have a soft spot for Aspies. And I believe it is immoral to not give people the benefit of a doubt. Also, being ignored is a huge pet peeve of mine, hence my earlier post which is a bit too provocative. But it does seem like Czarcasm didn’t consider the idea that the forum might’ve allowed socks. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308/40 "2009-11-05T15:37:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Precisely the problem. Mods should not take a stance on that issue. And they usually don’t. I don’t know how many posters have been accused of being trolls in the Pit, and I’ve never seen the mods take a stance on those. What’s different in this case? > [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Based on moderator past interaction we him, we were uncomfortable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-czarcasm-wtf/516308.md?page=3)