# Um...I think you've gotten that saying wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 31, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130 "2010-08-31T14:15:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/101 "2010-09-01T18:18:21Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > > > I don’t have a cite, but that is what I have always thought it meant. I actually didn’t even understand it the other way (in other words, when people used it the other way, I didn’t understand that stick = beating…I just thought they were misunderstanding the original usage). > > > > I seem to dimly remember an old fable or something about a mule with a stick and carrot tied in front of him. I’m not at all sure, though. ( I did find [this cartoon](http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cga0172l.jpg)on google images) > > Yes, that carrot on a stick meme is well known, but it isn’t what people mean when they say we need to use “the carrot and the stick”. They mean that they need to use both punishment and reward, not dangle an impossible to acquire incentive. I totally believe you. I just think it is a very strange and remarkable coincidence that the sayings aren’t related. In other words, if the ‘carrot and stick’ approach meant to lure with an award that one is never going to actually get, and it is also used to mean ‘punish and reward’ then it is amazing that ‘punish and reward’ also happens to use a \*carrot and a stick \*in its example. That seems to me like it must be related…that maybe the reward/punishment morphed from the original meaning. And that is completely ok. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/102 "2010-09-01T19:03:47Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > It has become common usage to tell someone when you want them to sign something, “Put your John Henry on that.” > > I don’t doubt you (and it doesn’t surprise me), but I’ve never heard this. Everyone who’s said it to me correctly says “John Hancock.” I heard this a lot in Canada. I asked people about it, and they insisted it was “John Henry”. I guess John Hancock doesn’t mean much to them, heh. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/103 "2010-09-01T19:19:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with using cycle instead of circle since those words are synonyms. There is no big book of metaphors that one must adhere to. There’s nothing wrong with that usage as long as you understand you are making your own phrase and not using the idiom. The original term is _vicious circle_. You could say “unfortunate trend for events to repeat and reinforce themselves” too and be correct. However, a lot of people aren’t riffing creatively on the idiom, they’re just sort of approximating English usage and hoping nobody cares. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/104 "2010-09-01T20:03:25Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > I believe that “carrot-and-stick” used to mean one thing but has been misused so much that it now means something else. > > The original meaning was akin to “a promised reward that is always out of reach”. The owner of a mule tied a carrot to a stick and dangled it in front of the mule to get it to move forward. As the mule moved forward so did the stick and carrot. > > Of course, the term now just means “reward and punishment”. It’s possible that this usage of carrot and stick arose from something other than the scenario I describe, but I doubt it. I can think of a lot of nice incentives for good behavior but a carrot isn’t one of them. And there are plenty of words that mean “a stick for punishment,” such as “crop” and “club” and “switch”. I’ve never heard of a “carrot and stick” approach; only a “carrot on a stick” approach. After looking it up, I conclude that these are two separate idioms, the first of which sounds stupid. > [@Gyrate](#): > > The problem is that people mix up the Italian “for-tay” (used in music to mean “loud”) and the French “fort” (for “strength”); they’re both spelled “forte” but the people tend to use the Italian pronunciation for the French meaning. Forte also means strong. Those aren’t two homophones, though- they’re the same word. In Italy, I guess you could say, there’s no such thing as a loud or soft sound. There are just strong and weak sounds. So it’s more like people using the Italian pronunciation for the Italian meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/105 "2010-09-01T20:28:55Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > People who can’t pronounce “squirrel” can surely find ways to insert many extra consonants, vowels and syllables that the spelling never meant to include. I was driving through Atlanta once in the mid-90s and a song by the Squirrel Nut Zippers came on. This was back when the big-band sound had made a comeback. The DJ – a tiny little college “alternative” radio station – back-announced the song, which I’d never heard before that particular road trip. He said, and I quote, “That was the Scroll Nut Zippers.” I spent the next 50 miles trying to figure out what the fuck a Scroll Nut Zipper might be. I finally figured it out when I reached a town wherein the DJs could properly pronounce the word, “squirrel.” /hijack ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/106 "2010-09-01T22:06:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > There’s nothing wrong with using cycle instead of circle since those words are synonyms. There is no big book of metaphors that one must adhere to. > > There’s nothing wrong with that usage as long as you understand you are making your own phrase and not using the idiom. The original term is _vicious circle_. You could say “unfortunate trend for events to repeat and reinforce themselves” too and be correct. > > However, a lot of people aren’t riffing creatively on the idiom, they’re just sort of approximating English usage and hoping nobody cares. A vicious circle isn’t an idiom though. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/107 "2010-09-01T23:40:30Z")
Since other single-word mispronunciations have made it into this thread, I must say I can’t stand hearing mischievous mispronounced. There is no “i” after the “v”, so why do people say it like there is one? Check any dictionary- I’ll wait. Others commonly mispronounced here in South Georgia are salmon, plantain, and et cetera (that one’s not just in the south). ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/108 "2010-09-01T23:51:18Z")
I had a friend who once went to a Rolling Stones concert. She later told me that they played “Symphony For The Devil”. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/109 "2010-09-02T02:58:05Z")
> [@campp](#): > > I had a friend who once went to a Rolling Stones concert. She later told me that they played “Symphony For The Devil”. Maybe she first heard the song in the Blood, Sweat & Tears version, which is called _Symphony for the Devil_. ---
**Author:** ![FrancisCastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b4bc9f/32.png) [@FrancisCastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrancisCastle)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/110 "2010-09-02T03:46:27Z")
My BF’s pet peeve is when people say “I could care less” when they actually mean “I couldn’t care less”. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/111 "2010-09-02T04:10:25Z")
> [@Jeneva](#): > > > [@CalMeacham](#): > > > > I don’t doubt you (and it doesn’t surprise me), but I’ve never heard this. Everyone who’s said it to me correctly says “John Hancock.” > > I heard this a lot in Canada. I asked people about it, and they insisted it was “John Henry”. I guess John Hancock doesn’t mean much to them, heh. The first time I heard it was at a Chirstmas party in IA and when I corrected it the whole dang houseful of in-laws told me I was wrong. No surprise there, as I discovered it was their mission in life. And of course everyone who says it to you _correctly_, Mr. Meacham, says, “John Hancock.” What I’m sayin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Pseudocode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/59ef9b/32.png) [@Pseudocode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pseudocode)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/112 "2010-09-02T04:34:15Z")
“As a part of our prioritization effort, we want to be sure that all of our projects have the proper precedents.” “We plan to pole the audience.” (I found an excuse to miss that meeting.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/113 "2010-09-02T12:45:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > …A vicious circle isn’t an idiom though. Huh? At least in US English “vicious circle” \*is \*the idiom. “Vicious cycle” is a recent bastardization, probably the result of some mis-heard illiteracy. Or at least that’s how it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/114 "2010-09-02T13:29:57Z")
> [@Pseudocode](#): > > “We plan to pole the audience.” (I found an excuse to miss that meeting.) Ouch! I bet you did. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/115 "2010-09-02T13:30:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Huh? At least in US English “vicious circle” \*is \*the idiom. “Vicious cycle” is a recent bastardization, probably the result of some mis-heard illiteracy. > > Or at least that’s how it seems to me. You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/116 "2010-09-02T13:44:34Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Huh? At least in US English “vicious circle” \*is \*the idiom. “Vicious cycle” is a recent bastardization, probably the result of some mis-heard illiteracy. > > > > Or at least that’s how it seems to me. > > You are correct. I support the position that _vicious circle_ is the parent expression and that _vicious cycle_ is the more recent ripoff/misreading, but I will acknowledge what this recent poll demonstrates: [“A vicious \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=574248) In My Humble Opinion 08-11-2010, 10:04 AM Not everyone is as convinced as I. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/117 "2010-09-02T13:56:29Z")
I _love_ “It’s a doggy dog world”. Reduces me to fits of giggles! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/118 "2010-09-02T14:05:01Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > I _love_ “It’s a doggy dog world”. Reduces me to fits of giggles! It oddly arouses me. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/119 "2010-09-02T14:15:57Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > …A vicious circle isn’t an idiom though. > > Huh? At least in US English “vicious circle” \*is \*the idiom. “Vicious cycle” is a recent bastardization, probably the result of some mis-heard illiteracy. > > Or at least that’s how it seems to me. An idiom is a phrase that has meaning beyond what the words literally mean. For example, take something like “He’s a rotten apple”. Obviously when people say that they don’t mean he is a piece of fruit that has gone bad. The phrase has taken on a meaning beyond the literal meaning of its words. So if you say “He’s a spoiled banana” it’s nonsense because those words don’t have a common figurative meaning attached to them. On the other hand, a “vicious cycle/circle” has no real meaning beyond the literal definition of the words. We can have terrible circles, awesome circles, deadly circles, and so forth. Replacing circle with cycle doesn’t change the meaning of the phrase, so there is nothing wrong with doing it. You can’t say, “I think you meant vicious circle” because vicious circle and vicious cycle have the exact same meaning. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/120 "2010-09-02T16:59:25Z")
There is a certain major university with one of the largest alumni associations in the world who are particularly supportive of their football program. The sports development office sent out a fundraising bulletin to hundreds of thousands of people that contained a note at the end saying that they needed extra money as they were behind in a few areas and making payments, “In the rear.” They said it twice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130.md?page=7)