# Um...I think you've gotten that saying wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 31, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130 "2010-08-31T14:15:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/121 "2010-09-02T17:07:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Huh? At least in US English “vicious circle” \*is \*the idiom. “Vicious cycle” is a recent bastardization, probably the result of some mis-heard illiteracy. > > > > Or at least that’s how it seems to me. > > An idiom is a phrase that has meaning beyond what the words literally mean. For example, take something like “He’s a rotten apple”. Obviously when people say that they don’t mean he is a piece of fruit that has gone bad. The phrase has taken on a meaning beyond the literal meaning of its words. So if you say “He’s a spoiled banana” it’s nonsense because those words don’t have a common figurative meaning attached to them. > > On the other hand, a “vicious cycle/circle” has no real meaning beyond the literal definition of the words. We can have terrible circles, awesome circles, deadly circles, and so forth. Replacing circle with cycle doesn’t change the meaning of the phrase, so there is nothing wrong with doing it. You can’t say, “I think you meant vicious circle” because vicious circle and vicious cycle have the exact same meaning. Ah, but a _cycle_ is not **literally** a _circle_. It can be depicted that way to illustrate cyclical change, but spring-summer-fall-winter is not a circle unless one is seeing time as a dimension or something. We talk about the circle of life, for example, using a circular image as a _metaphor_ for cyclical change returning to its starting point. It _is_ idiomatic. . ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/122 "2010-09-02T17:20:32Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Ah, but a _cycle_ is not **literally** a _circle_. It can be depicted that way to illustrate cyclical change, but spring-summer-fall-winter is not a circle unless one is seeing time as a dimension or something. Great point. The best way I know of to illustrate this is to realize that even though the Earth makes its way around the Sun in the course of a year, by the time the Earth returns to the same place it was in its orbit a year ago, the entire Solar System has moved on to a new position in the Galaxy and the Galaxy has moved on to yet another place in the Universe. There’s no truer statement than “You can’t go home again.” ---
**Author:** ![Looey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee7513/32.png) [@Looey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Looey)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/123 "2010-09-02T17:32:41Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > I can’t stand hearing mischievous mispronounced. There is no “i” after the "v. Oh man, you got me. I started reading this thinking, I never make those kinds of mistakes. And then you went and got me. It’s not a word I use much anyway, I think I’ll just start looking for synonyms. (I wonder now if it’s because it’s meaning can be similar to “devious”.) Similarly, I can’t stand the way the British pronounce aluminum. There’s no “i” before the “um” in that one either. I am also consistently amazed at the number of adults who don’t know the difference between no, now, and know. Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/124 "2010-09-02T17:46:06Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > An idiom is a phrase that has meaning beyond what the words literally mean. For example, take something like “He’s a rotten apple”. Obviously when people say that they don’t mean he is a piece of fruit that has gone bad. The phrase has taken on a meaning beyond the literal meaning of its words. So if you say “He’s a spoiled banana” it’s nonsense because those words don’t have a common figurative meaning attached to them. > > > > On the other hand, a “vicious cycle/circle” has no real meaning beyond the literal definition of the words. We can have terrible circles, awesome circles, deadly circles, and so forth. Replacing circle with cycle doesn’t change the meaning of the phrase, so there is nothing wrong with doing it. You can’t say, “I think you meant vicious circle” because vicious circle and vicious cycle have the exact same meaning. > > Ah, but a _cycle_ is not **literally** a _circle_. It can be depicted that way to illustrate cyclical change, but spring-summer-fall-winter is not a circle unless one is seeing time as a dimension or something. We talk about the circle of life, for example, using a circular image as a _metaphor_ for cyclical change returning to its starting point. It _is_ idiomatic. No, one of the definitions of circle is basically cycle: > [@](#): > > 1. A series or process that finishes at its starting point or continuously repeats itself; a cycle. > **[circle](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/circle)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of circle by The Free Dictionary It’s simply not a metaphor nor an idiom. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/125 "2010-09-02T17:57:02Z")
[quote=“Looey, post:123, topic:552130”] > [@california\_jobcase](#): > > Similarly, I can’t stand the way the British pronounce aluminum. There’s no “i” before the “um” in that one either. There is in the [British spelling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Present-day_spelling). ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/126 "2010-09-02T19:59:13Z")
> [@saje](#): > > ‘nip it in the butt’ vs ‘nip it in the BUD’ (which of course is correct). I couldn’t believe how many think it’s the first one! Augh! My husband is one of these! I’ve even told him that it’s the latter, and he ignores me. Of course, his parents have their female pets “spaded” too, so maybe it’s genetic. (I just say that that’s barbaric; you could’ve simply had the vet sterilize them instead of bludgeoning them to death.) My grandmother “takes things for granite.” One time my brother asked, “why can’t it be marble?” She didn’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/127 "2010-09-03T00:04:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [Circle - definition of circle by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/circle) > > It’s simply not a metaphor nor an idiom. Hey, check definition 13. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/128 "2010-09-03T01:07:41Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > [Circle - definition of circle by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/circle) > > > > It’s simply not a metaphor nor an idiom. > > Hey, check definition 13. 🙂 > [@](#): > > vicious circle > n. > > 1. A situation in which the apparent solution of one problem in a chain of circumstances creates a new problem and increases the difficulty of solving the original problem. Also called vicious cycle. Checkmate! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/129 "2010-09-03T03:18:54Z")
**treis** , the meaning beyond the words is in the phrase’s echo in the English literary tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/130 "2010-09-03T04:43:07Z")
Only bad people say “vicious cycle.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130/131 "2010-09-03T04:50:08Z")
No, not bad people. Just poorly read. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-i-think-youve-gotten-that-saying-wrong/552130.md?page=6)