# Um, Stalinists Run US Peace Movement? Would that be bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317 "2003-02-11T07:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/1 "2003-02-11T07:35:45Z")
[Right-wing Frontpage Magazine reporting on extreme left-wing Stalinists _allegedly_ running the peace movement.](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6024) As much as I believe in everyone’s right to speak and protest - it is equally incumbent upon me to question the wisdom of anyone extolling the virtues of Castro, or especially, Kim Jong Il. > [@](#): > > On February 15, many thousands of protesters will assemble within sight of the United Nations building in New York to express their opposition to a war in Iraq. Their efforts will be duplicated in some 300 additional cities throughout North America, Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. This will be the first such protest not organized by the Workers World Party (WWP), an energetic Marxist-Leninist organization that openly supports Kim Jong Il’s brutal dictatorship in North Korea. Instead, it will be run by a group called United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ), whose co-chair Leslie Cagan is an enthusiastic, longtime supporter of yet another Communist despot, Fidel Castro… > > …In short, Cagan candidly sides with Castro’s Communist regime rather than with the United States, which she deems the world’s foremost terrorist nation. The Venceremos Brigades with which she proudly associated were in fact organized by Castro’s Cuban intelligence agency, which went so far as to train some “brigadistas” in guerrilla warfare techniques, including the use of arms and explosives. Cagan’s pro-Castro rallies were supported by such socialist organizations as Casa de las Americas, the Communist Party, the Socialist Workers Party, the Venceremos Brigades, the Workers World Party, and the Young Socialists. Cagan herself was an original founder of the Committees of Correspondence, a splinter group rooted in the Communist Party USA. Joining the chorus of her fellow leaders in the “peace” movement, she condemns what she calls America’s “daily assaults and attacks on poor and working people, on women, people of color, lesbians/gays and other sexual minorities, the disabled and so many others, [and] such foreign policy matters as . . . military actions and economic sanctions.”… > > …Some readers may find it difficult to believe that the WWP does, in fact, support the murderous North Korean government which has not only exterminated hundreds of thousands in concentration camps, but has poured all available resources into a military buildup while some two million people died of starvation. Yet on July 9, 1994, WWP chairman Sam Marcy wrote to “Dear Comrade Kim Jong Il,” extending the organization’s “deepest condolences” on the death of Kim’s father, “the great leader of the Korean people, Comrade President Kim Il Sung.” Marcy eulogized the elder Kim for having “devoted his whole life to the Korean people’s struggle for national self-determination and the international working-class struggle for socialist emancipation. With his leadership, the Korean people . . . brought about the first defeat of the US imperialist military machine. . . . Comrade Kim Il Sung worked tirelessly to bring about the peaceful reunification of Korea and to forge a lasting peace on the peninsula. . . . It is Kim Il Sung’s remarkable achievement that in his own lifetime he became a symbol of national liberation and reunification for the Korean people, and a symbol of the anti-imperialist and socialist struggles of all the world’s peoples. Although US imperialism tried at every opportunity to blockade, threaten and sabotage the construction of socialism in the north, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea stands strong. . . . Workers World Party [is] proud to have known Kim Il Sung as a great leader and a comrade in the international communist movement.”… The United States may sometimes make boneheaded mistakes in foreign policy. But, c’mon, Kim Jong Il. He makes Castro look reasonable. Huge army, missile technology, nuclear weapons (Or not, [according to SK)](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,78079,00.html). Yet, NK has a starving population, giant gulags, and human rights abuses that are some of the worst in the world. With such epic bad judgment and analysis allegedly permeating these particular organizations, especially regarding the whole Cuban and North Korean situations, why should I listen to these people? **Note: _you personally_ may have wonderful reasons for opposing the war, and are probably not a Stalinist.** Can we just take that as a given? I’m not trying to associate the anti-war posters on the SDMB with these folks. Unless, of course, you would like to be associated with them. That would probably make a better debate anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@lout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/2 "2003-02-11T11:43:12Z")
I don’t think that trying to associate opposition to the invasion of Iraq with support for North Korea is gonna get very far. You shouldn’t listen to “these people.” Rather, you should consider the merits of the invasion and make up your own mind, like any other thinking person. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/3 "2003-02-11T14:57:12Z")
What makes her a Stalinist? Few Communist have any sort of affection for Stalin. The only Stalinists you’ll find nowdays are extreme Russian nationalists who want facism- not communism. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/4 "2003-02-11T15:04:35Z")
Oh, I forgot to mention. [Saddam studied Stalin](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html). Which is weird. The first time I saw the guy I thought he was a Stalin knock off. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/5 "2003-02-11T15:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > What makes her a Stalinist? She, meaning Leslie Cagan the planner of the Feb. 15 peace rally in front of the UN, is a Marxist-Leninist who supports Fidel Castro. The Worker’s World Party, catalyst of earlier demonstrations, is the organization that has a soft spot for [Stalinists like Kim Jong Il](http://asia.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/13/bio.kim.jongil/). > [@](#): > > His father, Kim Il Sung, had fled to the Soviet Union when the Japanese put a price on his head for guerrilla activities in occupied Korea. The family returned to the northern part of the peninsula after Japan surrender in World War II, and Soviet dictator Josef Stalin anointed Kim Il Sung as the leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Like father, like son. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/6 "2003-02-11T15:20:58Z")
This is hardly new. Didn’t the World Peace Council of the 70s and 80s get a lot of its funding from Moscow? My cite is What about the Russians- and Nuclear War?, a book I have at home and whose authors I can’t recall at the moment. I would expect most organizations that oppose the US government to be reflexively anti-war with Iraq. Along with others, of course, but the further left you are, the more likely you are to be anti-pretty much everything a Republican-led government wants to do. I have never been to their websites, but I would bet the Socialist Workers Party, the American Communist Party, and so forth, to oppose the war with Iraq. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/7 "2003-02-11T15:44:18Z")
Mr. Aburish on the Stalin - Saddam link. > [@](#): > > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Saddam studied Stalin. Stalin is his hero. Stalin came from a humble background. Stalin was brought up by a mother. Stalin used thugs. Stalin used the security service. Stalin hated his army. And so does Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein models himself after Stalin more than any other man in history. > > He has a full library of books about Stalin. He reads about him, and when he was a young man–even before he attained any measure of power–he used to wander around the offices of the Ba’ath Party telling people ‘wait until I take over this country. I will make a Stalin state out of it yet.’ People used to laugh him off. They shouldn’t have. It was a very serious proposition indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/8 "2003-02-11T15:49:29Z")
Yes, most of those sites call for stopping the war and for mobilizing for Peace on 2/15. I was wildly curious about this because it seems like I should be against whatever it is that they are for…so I looked for explanations. From [the Communist Party of Canada](http://www.communist-party.ca/) In fact, the anti-war movement and the fight against capitalist globalization are one and the same battle, against the same enemy – imperialism, the highest and most reactionary stage of capitalism. From the [Socialist Party, UK](http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2003/285/index.html?id=np1.htm) The Socialist says Build for the mass demonstration in London on 15 February as part of the international day of protest against war with Iraq. Build anti-war groups in every school, college, university, workplace and community. Develop sustained and organised mass civil disobedience - walkouts, protests, blockades and industrial action. Campaign for an alternative to global conflict and war - for a socialist world! Best one, [International A.N.S.W.E.R.](http://www.internationalanswer.org/news/update/011103unity.html) > [@](#): > > FOURTH: It is important that this international popular initiative of solidarity with Iraq and Palestine proceed according to an Action Plan which includes clearly defined priorities: > > 1. Condemnation of U.S. military presence on Arab land along with pressuring the Arab governments that allow U.S military bases on their territory to close them down, and not to provide air, naval, or land facilities > > 2. Develop cooperation among popular organizations of the South to reinforce solidarity in confronting the policies and practices of neo-liberal globalization and U.S. hegemony > > 3. Work towards cooperation with the international anti-globalization movement of the North and South, and participation in activities and meetings organized by this movement > > 4. Promote the unity of democratic forces and popular organizations in different parts of the world, and form solidarity committees which oppose war on Iraq, and the genocidal crimes faced by Palestinians, supporting their right to resistance and struggle for liberation > > 5. Under the banner “Together against globalization and U.S Hegemony” add Iraq and Palestine to the agendas of international progressive meetings, particularly the next Social Forum at Porte Allegre > > 6. Invite Arab and international human rights organizations to evaluate humanitarian conditions in Iraq and disseminate their findings worldwide > > 7. Prepare to send human shields to Iraq > > 8. Introduce the boycott of U.S. and Israeli commodities in solidarity campaigns in support of Iraq and Palestine, with emphasis on the right of return for Palestinians > > 9. Elect a Steering Committee to follow up on the implementation of the Cairo Declaration, and coordination among organizations which commit to its principles, and enhance awareness through appropriate actions ranging from the preparation of posters to organizing marches and demonstrations in solidarity with Iraq and Palestine There’s a lot of -isms in there… ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/9 "2003-02-11T15:59:59Z")
Protests of this sort are _very_ loose coalitions. The Trotskyites, the International Socialisists and the Communists always think _they_ are “the” organisers because their ideologies tell them that they are the vanguard party. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/10 "2003-02-11T16:24:46Z")
It’s your choice to listen to whomever you please on issues like the war on Iraq. What this article is trying to do is discredit the whole anti-war movement because one large event is being organized by a Stalinist group. These groups - UFPJ, International ANSWER, and the like - aren’t running the anti-war movement any more than the International Socialist Organization or the American Friends Service Committee are. So it’s facile - no, dishonest - to single out one group and trash the whole anti-war movement because they’re at the head of organizing one event. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/11 "2003-02-11T16:29:56Z")
So if I went to an anti-affirmative action rally sponsered by the KKK that would be fine with you? The sponsorship by a group of disgusting violent thugs would be meaningsless, as long as they are fellow travellers in a good cause? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/12 "2003-02-11T16:32:53Z")
**Olentzero** , It depends on the definition of “run”? I agree actually. Strictly speaking, as a debate topic, the weakness of the affirmative position is the definition of run. OK, I’ll concede that. But, on the broader issue of one group of Stalinists supporting a Stalin wannabe and having, let’s say, “a significant role in organizing peace demonstrations,” I think the case has been made. > [@](#): > > So it’s facile - no, dishonest - to single out one group and trash the whole anti-war movement because they’re at the head of organizing one event. You know, as much mud - much unsubstantiated - as gets thrown at the United States and GWB by the far left, it is amazing to see how thin their skins can be. [sub]Beagle’s Correlary to Godwin’s Law In 10…9… “You are a McCarthyite…”[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/13 "2003-02-11T16:43:55Z")
Hey, did anyone hear the story that after Gulf War II: Unfinished Business ---- available on a 24 hour news channel near you, the US is going to pull out of Saudi Arabia? That is #1 on the International A.N.S.W.E.R. list. OHMIGOD, they’ve infiltrated, let’s reopen the HUAC. Jes’ kiddin’. I’ve thought pulling out was a good idea for a long time. The Saudi’s don’t want us there, it inflames the radical Muslims (Holy Land, etc), and we can’t use them for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/14 "2003-02-11T16:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > **So if I went to an anti-affirmative action rally sponsered by the KKK that would be fine with you?** No, because I oppose the KKK and I support affirmative action. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Beagle_ > **on the broader issue of one group of Stalinists supporting a Stalin wannabe and having, let’s say, “a significant role in organizing peace demonstrations,” I think the case has been made.** The case has been made for what? The whole anti-war movement being Stalinist? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/15 "2003-02-11T17:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The case has been made for what? The whole anti-war movement being Stalinist? Premise 1: Saddam patterns himself on Stalin. See above link. Premise 2: The WWP idealizes the Stalinist regime in NK. See above link. Premise 3: Leslie Cagan supports Fidel Castro. See above link. Premise 4: Castro, Saddam, and Stalin might reasonably be termed “very repressive,” “very, very repressive” and “perhaps the most repressive in history.” Premise 5: Cagan and the WWP, what did I say?, "(have),let’s say, “a significant role in organizing peace demonstrations.” Conclusion: Many of the US anti-war movement’s visible demonstrations are generated by people with a preference for some of the worst governments I can imagine. Talk about unclean hands. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/16 "2003-02-11T17:22:41Z")
So you simply ignore my point. OK, suppose the Klan gave a anti-war rally, and went on and on about how the Iraq war was a plot by the Jews and ZOG against the white man. I believe that most white supremacist groups actually hold this view. Would you consider attending an anti-war rally sponsored by the KKK, or Stormfront, or WAR? After all, fellow travelers… ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/17 "2003-02-11T17:24:37Z")
And therefore what? I’m not arguing that International ANSWER isn’t Stalinist - though I don’t know a whole lot about UFPJ so I won’t make a statement either way about that. So the groups that have called for demonstrations, publicized them, and organized the programs at the front (speakers and such) are Stalinist. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/18 "2003-02-11T17:34:32Z")
**Lemur** , I’m not defending Stalinism by any stretch of the imagination. But I don’t use “opposition to the war” as the sole yardstick for deciding which rallies to attend or which groups to support, either. I certainly don’t consider anyone who opposes the war on the basis of the “Jewish conspiracy”, and whose solution to preventing other similar occurrences is probably some form of the Final Solution, to be a ‘fellow traveler’. International ANSWER, for all their major faults, rightly see this war as an imperialist move by the US and oppose the war on that basis. Refusing to participate in a demonstration they organize simply because they’re Stalinists will leave groups like the ISO isolated from the people who oppose the war, who aren’t Stalinists, and who comprise the audience we’re trying to reach with our ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/19 "2003-02-11T17:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > International ANSWER, for all their major faults, rightly see this war as an imperialist move by the US It will be interesting to see how the oil trust idea works out, if it should come to pass. I would not be surprised if a US victory over Saddam made Iraq billions more dollars, oh, besides freeing them from the hands of a Stalinist madman. Moreover, I see the US attempting to withdraw troops ASAP after any war. Of course, that’s just my opinion… ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317/20 "2003-02-11T17:47:48Z")
That’s as may be. I’m still interested in hearing what further conclusions you draw from noting that three demonstrations, attended by thousands people who oppose the war, were organized by Stalinist groups. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-stalinists-run-us-peace-movement-would-that-be-bad/154317.md?page=2)