# Um . . . why no 9/11 pre-knowledge rants yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595 "2002-05-17T18:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/81 "2002-05-19T15:09:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posted by RTA_ > As for these hysterical insults, […] Let me be clear: when I insulted you, it _wasn’t_ because of what you believe. That just illustrates the difference between an open and a gaping mind. What disgusts me is your selfishness. Recently I’ve posted on these boards about a right-wing conspiracy involving refugees and my own government. My suspicions - that the crisis was manufactured and the government was lying - have all proven true. Was I happy? No, I fucking hate it that I was right. I would much rather have looked a complete fool than such a terrible thing be true. But you? You’d be _happy_ to find vindiction on this? You’re _salivating_ at the prospect of finding out your government was complicit in mass murder? You don’t fervently hope to be wrong? No, you’d feel good about yourself and be able to say “I told you so” to everyone on these boards - as if that’s what matters. _That_ is what’s sick about your post. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/82 "2002-05-19T17:19:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > > Well, since it is so clear and obvious, perhaps you can let the rest of us know what ObL and Co. are going to do **next**. > \*\* Fabulous challenge, **Shodan**. And by the way, if anyone forsees the next world crisis, please go short on the appropriate stocks. Yes, you’ll be profiting from other people’s misery. But consider the attention you will get for having unequivocally predicted such an event. Combine that with the money you will have made, and you’ll be in a good position to better the world with your gifts. ---
**Author:** ![Narile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Narile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narile)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/83 "2002-05-19T19:52:23Z")
I’ve been reading this and reading this, and find it fascinating that so far no one has pointed a finger at the fact that every bit of information available to the President was also available to the members of Congress in the Select Committee of Intelligence, both House and Senate. Lets see, Gephardt You had access to those documents…so why aren’t you blaming yourself for the same faults? Maybe it is because you fell asleep in a meeting? And I remember all sorts of warnings about terrorist threats back in the early 1990’s after Desert Storm. We paid attention to those right enough, I mean an attack never even got through…Oh, yeah, 1993, same place as 9/11. Our friend Mr. Clinton also had several reports warning him that an attack might occur, and did he hieghten security…nope. Did we see a lot of media attention trying to place the blame of the six people killed on his head for his lack of action even though he had warning…nope. Is this a left-wing witchhunt…yeap. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/84 "2002-05-19T20:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* Uh, **Guin**? Why would you _want_ **Shodan** to have been sarcastic? Read the whole post. From the perspective of **Shodan** ’s slightly right of center position, the SDMB’s “Left” has demonstrated remarkable (overall) restraint and not piled on with a Bush-bashing. The characterization of the board’s “Left” is simply a mild indication of the distance to the right that **Shodan** stand’s from the center. > > A compliment in the Pit. Accept it and move on. \*\* “Slightly” right of center? How dare you, sir! You - you - you - _moderate_! Sorry - I got carried away. This is the Pit, after all. Anyway, back to the reasoned and rational debate. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/85 "2002-05-19T20:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narile \* > \*\*I’ve been reading this and reading this, and find it fascinating that so far no one has pointed a finger at the fact that every bit of information available to the President was also available to the members of Congress in the Select Committee of Intelligence, both House and Senate. Lets see, Gephardt You had access to those documents…so why aren’t you blaming yourself for the same faults? Maybe it is because you fell asleep in a meeting? Not true. [http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020517-158207.htm](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020517-158207.htm) > [@](#): > > ``` > There was confusion, too, about whether lawmakers on the House and Senate intelligence committees had access to the same warnings that the White House did. After a briefing with National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Mr. Daschle said committee members had not seen the same intelligence reports as the president. > "The only people that had this information are those in the White House," Mr. Daschle said. "It's critical everybody understands that." > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/86 "2002-05-19T20:54:55Z")
I’d like to point out that since 9/11 the administration has been doing the exact thing people are saying they should have done before, which is to make public all the hints of attacks and threats that they receive. And the result has been condemnation from the very same people. As far as I can tell, this is what people want: Warnings of every attack that is going to happen, but no warnings at all when the attack doesn’t materialize. That’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/87 "2002-05-19T21:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Excerpt from a post by lissener \* > \*\*They had enough info for any third-rate detective to deduce the possibility that–SPECIFICALLY–followers of Osama bin Laden might be thinking about suicidally crashing an airplane into the Pentagon, or other government buildings. > > AT A MINIMUM, they should have mandated secure cockpit doors on all jetliners. > > This would have been the minimally competent action taken by an EFFECTIVE government intelligence apparatus; one that was making the minimal effort to coordinate and analyze incoming intelligence. > > The intelligence was there; nobody did the math. \*\* Good point. (Assuming it’s true that they had this info.) If the government had mandated either secure, locked cockpit doors, or armed cockpit crews, or had taken both steps, the events of Sept. 11th would not have happened. Instead, the terrorists would have found some other weak point and done something different. Something worse? Less bad? Would their alternative strike have been sucessful? Unsucessful? Who knows? But with hindsight, it does seem that the airlines were entirely too vulnerable; planes were too easy to hijack. The situation was a disaster waiting to happen. Come to think of it, in the mid-ninties, didn’t someone hijack a plane in Europe and try to crash it into the Eiffle Tower or something? That one incident should have been enough of a wake up call for us to have taken steps to make it harder to hijack a plane. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/88 "2002-05-20T00:16:54Z")
D’oh. Sorry, my bad. I’ve been cranky lately. PMS-you know? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/89 "2002-05-20T01:48:54Z")
From a response [here](http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3079) > [@](#): > > Let’s go even further: assume that the FBI had information on the exact date, time, flight number, and descriptions of suspects. So they raid all the planes, and arrest the 19 dirtbags. > > …And then what? Not much, I imagine. Oh, CAIR and it’s ilk would be having a fit, of course, complaining to everyone including George W. about profiling and unfair targeting of Arab-Americans. After all, just what did the FBI find? Some box cutters? Those aren’t illegal on airplanes. Flight manuals? These men were all attending accredited flight schools, trying to achieve the American dream, etc. etc. So they had one-way tickets: is that a crime? Funeral shrouds? Are you honestly arresting these men for bringing white sheets onto a plane? Korans? So because these men are pious Muslims, you dare to assume…! And really, folks, come on: flying a Boeing into a skyscraper? You’ve been watching too many movies! Who would come up with something this complicated, when a truck bomb in a garage would do just as well? > > And so on and so on. I’m sure at least half these men would have been released within a couple of days. Profiling would be discussed at length on CNN and PBS. Several specials would be made, with weeping, hijab-wearing photogenic young women, describing in perfect Midwestern English the ordeal of being singled out by airport security. American Airlines would issue an apology, and make a contribution to the Arab-American Anti-Defamation Society, with a promise of more “outreach efforts.” Norman Mineta would be outraged! and put in all sorts of new restrictions designed specifically to avoid giving extra scrutiny to “people of Middle Eastern appearance.” (hey! wait a second!) George W. would go on the record saying that “pro-filling” is “discriminatational” and against everything he holds dear. Clinton would tell a story of his Lebanese-American great-uncle who was once denied entry into the White House. Al Gore would talk about his years of service under Lawrence of Arabia. Pretty soon, the whole thing would be forgotten as another embarrasing example of the Latent Racism in American Society. > > Until one day, another group of men board an airliner… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/90 "2002-05-20T04:27:39Z")
**Hazel** , that’s a defeatist argument known as moving the goal posts! The government should do the best job it’s able, and, like the fight against crime in NY, talent and dedication can win the day. Aside to **Billdo** … moreover, it turns out Tom Clancy covered crashing planes into things in 1994. But hey, I’ll read that _and_ I’m still wading through **Who becomes a terrorist and why.** I’ll figure I’ll be better informed when the government screws up again. **Hazel** , et al. Following are my predictions for future terrorist disaster. Have rather good track record, so avoid if you’re easily disturbed: [ul] 1. 2004: Truck filled with easily obtainable cargo, such as industrial solvents exploded in chunnel, causing 2000 deaths, mostly in panic when exits are obscured by smoke. The rest by carbon monoxide poisining 2. 2006:Supertanker’s night crew overpowered, rammed into navy boats at dock, causing environmental disaster and destruction of navy shipyard, when the oil is set on fire. Hijackers get away. FARC takes ironic credit for ‘many sins against South American Democracies.’ 3. 2010: Biotoxin terror eased, after lapsed Aum Shinrikyo agent divulges many successful attempts at poising water supplies, other, with “no noticable results.” 4. 2015: Infiltrators train for years to penetrate a Nuclear Plant, only to find it par with breaking into a 7-11. Shaped semtex charges on the reactor core cause minor meltdown. Nuclear power sacrificed, along with 40 mile radius of sacrifice zone.[/ul] Tom Clancy, if you use this in a book I want the mad royalties. ---
**Author:** ![Nenya\_Elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@Nenya\_Elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nenya_Elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/91 "2002-05-20T06:55:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\*Pretty soon, the whole thing would be forgotten. . . \ > > Until one day, another group of men board an airliner… > \*\* [aside] ☹ That’s pretty sad and scary, because it’s kind of true. We really would forget the threats quickly, even if they had caught the perpetrators beforehand. I really, really, hope that no one ever has to go through this again. But they might. People are really good at hurting each other. :mad: Hopefully we will figure out how to at least reduce the casualties, and not just bicker and bitch at one another until the next attack. Sigh. ☹ Grrrr. :mad: [/aside] ---
**Author:** ![hobgnoblin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@hobgnoblin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobgnoblin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/92 "2002-05-20T13:56:15Z")
OK, **lissener** , here’s your chance to shine (and for irrefutable I-told-you-so rights). What should we do? [New terror attack is imminent, Cheney warns US](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-301721,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/93 "2002-05-20T14:56:47Z")
Cracks me up, in a kind of cynical way, how–inevitably–this discussion has been reduced (not to say infantilized) to an I-[love/hate]-GWB-therefore-he-can-do-no-[right/wrong]. Please. I don’t give him enough credit to attack him personally, so all you bushie-sycophants can give it a rest. My criticism is of the GWB _administration_, which realistically (and again cynically) has little to do with the man himself. And again (why do I bother?), I’m not saying their negligence directly caused 9/11, nor that anything they might have done differently would definitively have prevented it. So give THAT a rest too, please. What I–and others–am (are?) saying is that they clearly knew more than they later admitted, and that a better analysis of what they DID know might very well have at least provided one more hurdle for ObL and AQ. Isn’t that all the “war against terrorism” can ever really do, after all? We can never learn enough or accomplish enough to free the world of terrorists and terrorism; all we can do is struggle to stay one step ahead of them. We–as embodied in the intelligence apparatus whose mission it is to accomplish this–failed to do so. And now all they can do is whine and point and sidestep. Yeuchh. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/94 "2002-05-20T15:04:52Z")
um. “I hate/love Bush therefore he can do no good/harm”? Obviously you’re reading a different thread. I saw lots of folks saying stuff like “while I can’t stand Bush, I still don’t think that…” and so on. and for what it’s worth, I think your OP line of > [@](#): > > What a bunch of murderously negligent assholes. pretty well directly contradicts your statement here > [@](#): > > And again (why do I bother?), I’m not saying their negligence directly caused 9/11, nor that anything they might have done differently would definitively have prevented it. From, yet another non Bush lover. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/95 "2002-05-20T15:10:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hobgnoblin \* > \*\*OK, **lissener** , here’s your chance to shine (and for irrefutable I-told-you-so rights). What should we do? > > [New terror attack is imminent, Cheney warns US](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-301721,00.html) \*\* Yeah, OK, whatever. :rolleyes: Look, hob, it’s not my job to analyze terrorist intelligence and formulate a plan of action. The people who’s job it is should be (one would hope) better at it than I am. I feel like a sucker making such an obvious point; like I’m rising to the most obvious bait. My job is to vote and debate; yours apparently is to obfuscate. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/96 "2002-05-20T15:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*. . . for what it’s worth, I think your OP line of > > ## quote: > > What a bunch of murderously negligent assholes. > > * * * > > ## pretty well directly contradicts your statement here quote: > > ## And again (why do I bother?), I’m not saying their negligence directly caused 9/11, nor that anything they might have done differently would definitively have prevented it. > > \*\* The only way I can address this is to repeat myself, which I refuse to do. Reread my posts above. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/97 "2002-05-20T15:19:54Z")
I did before I posted, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/98 "2002-05-20T15:34:46Z")
This thread makes me chuckle, in a cynical sense, of course. As you struggle to make sense of my obtuse meanderings and jerry-rigged trains of thought, I will put on airs of smug superiority until you finally realize I am completely full of shit. It amuses me. * * * Sound familiar? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/99 "2002-05-20T15:47:04Z")
Sorry to provide you with such an easy target, Priscylla. What must of course come off to some as smug superiority is simply my realization that I have spent too much energy on this board feinting at paper tigers. Just because someone can type doesn’t mean their “argument” is worthy of engagement. If I responded with equal effort to every single post, rather than reserving my energy for those posts that actually contribute to moving the debate forward, I’d do nothing all day but type in spirals. As you can personally attest, I have wasted a great deal of time doing so in the past. My efforts not to repeat that mistake can be easily (and cheaply) spun by some as elitism, when it’s nothing more than an acknowledgment on my part of the finite amount of time I can devote to this board. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595/100 "2002-05-20T16:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because someone can type doesn’t mean their “argument” is worthy of engagement. If I responded with equal effort to every single post, rather than reserving my energy for those posts that actually contribute to moving the debate forward, I’d do nothing all day but type in spirals. That’s just chickenshit backpeddling. You made an accusation, so wither back it up or retract it. It’s that simple. People like you and **RTA** only serve to remind me of the hypocrisy and elitism that makes the American left such a marginal element in modern politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/um-why-no-9-11-pre-knowledge-rants-yet/109595.md?page=6)