# UMBC becomes 1st 16 seed to beat a #1 seed **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 17, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713 "2018-03-17T03:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/21 "2018-03-17T16:23:43Z")
If I didn’t know the rankings, I would not have called this an upset. UMBC looked like a much better team, period. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/22 "2018-03-17T17:08:08Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Normally I’d rail against this and demand #1 and #2 seeds get an automatic bye in this round but this game wasn’t even close. It’s not like the #1 team in the country lost in a fluke buzzer beater. > > What the hell happened to Virginia??? What a bunch of losers, chokers and quitters and a disgrace to basketball. Their coach needs to be fired and the entire team cut. If I was an NBA Coach I’d never draft any of these jokers. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk They do tend to have a cavalier attitude. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/23 "2018-03-17T17:48:30Z")
Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post “There will never be a perfect bracket. The odds are astronomical.” Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post “But there have been.” > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m rather skeptical of this claim. There has not been anything anywhere near picking a full bracket, at least in official records of betting agencies. Even the odds of picking the entire first round are staggering. This goes into a more detailed report: [https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-03-14/march-madness-longest-perfect-bracket-streak-we-know](https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-03-14/march-madness-longest-perfect-bracket-streak-we-know) According to that article, in over 18 years of offering the full bracket challenge, Yahoo Sports says no one even picked the entire first round until 2014, when Brad Binder picked the first 36 games (1st round and 4 others). Last year, however, over 30 people got the first round right, and the top picker got 39, the current record. This autistic teen ran the first two rounds in 2010 but was not entered in a paid bracket bet. > **[Autistic Teen Picks First Two NCAA Rounds Perfectly](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/autistic-teen-picks-first-two-ncaa-rounds-perfectly/1869981/)** > > Alex Hermann beat the odds and got every game correct, so far. Dennis ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/24 "2018-03-17T18:01:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They do tend to have a cavalier attitude. Wah wah. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/25 "2018-03-17T23:45:01Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post > “There will never be a perfect bracket. The odds are astronomical.” > > Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post > “But there have been.” > > There has not been anything anywhere near picking a full bracket, at least in official records of betting agencies. Even the odds of picking the entire first round are staggering. This goes into a more detailed report: > > [https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-03-14/march-madness-longest-perfect-bracket-streak-we-know](https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracket-beat/2017-03-14/march-madness-longest-perfect-bracket-streak-we-know) > > According to that article, in over 18 years of offering the full bracket challenge, Yahoo Sports says no one even picked the entire first round until 2014, when Brad Binder picked the first 36 games (1st round and 4 others). Last year, however, over 30 people got the first round right, and the top picker got 39, the current record. > > This autistic teen ran the first two rounds in 2010 but was not entered in a paid bracket bet. > > [Autistic Teen Picks First Two NCAA Rounds Perfectly – NBC Chicago](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/sports/Autistic-Teen-Picks-First-Two-NCAA-Rounds-Perfectly-88916437.html) > > Dennis For some reason I thought that it’d happened a couple times. How hard can it be? I get pretty close every year! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/26 "2018-03-18T02:00:40Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > What the hell happened to Virginia??? What a bunch of losers, chokers and quitters and a disgrace to basketball. Lets not forget [childish](https://twitter.com/SInow/status/975029491411034112). I get that the question was dumb, so was losing to a #16 so convincingly. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/27 "2018-03-18T04:04:40Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Those players are going to be the laughingstock of campus on Monday. Too bad their spring break was last week! Now that they have some unexpected free time on their hands, they can take another one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/28 "2018-03-18T11:42:19Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > Lets not forget [childish](https://twitter.com/SInow/status/975029491411034112). I get that the question was dumb, so was losing to a #16 so convincingly. Wow. > [@](#): > > Q. [to a UVa player] “Were you aware that a 16 had never won before?” > A. “I think everyone’s aware of that. Thanks for bringing that up again” What was the non-childish answer? To me, that’s about as polite a response as one could expect. And actually, a 16 **had** won before. (Fight fiercely, Harvard! :D) A _men’s_ 16 had never won before. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/29 "2018-03-18T14:44:05Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > 134 people bet this long shot with one bookie, bet $100 to win $2500. The bookie lost over $320,000. > > Dennis Paying out for unlikely wins is not a “loss”, the bets are designed so the bookie wins no matter who wins the game, that’s what odds are about. That bookie probably made ten times that from the people who bet on Virginia. Unlikely winners are probably better for bookies than if the favorite wins. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/30 "2018-03-18T19:08:54Z")
That’s if the bookie is doing his job well. But I can believe that there might be some inexperienced bookie somewhere who wasn’t successful in keeping his action balanced, and didn’t worry too much about it because it was a “sure thing”. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/31 "2018-03-18T19:33:13Z")
There’s something that everybody seems to be forgetting; one of Virginia’s star players, De’Andre Hunter, was out with an injury. The one time a 16 beat a 1 in the women’s tournament, the 1 (Stanford) had its two top players out. Yes, Virginia was still somewhat heavily favored, but apparently the bookies underestimated the effect of Hunter’s absence. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/32 "2018-03-18T23:49:14Z")
I’ve probably read a dozen articles about this game. They all acknowledge the absence of a starting player and they all feel it was just not that great a factor. UMBA dominated virtually every important aspect of the game. They brought an “A” game that no one knew they had. I think their next game just started, we’ll see how they do now that the cat is out of the bag. Dennis ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/33 "2018-03-19T00:42:47Z")
Here are the complete Virginia - UMBC game stats: > **[UMBC vs. Virginia - Men's College Basketball Team Statistics - March 16, 2018...](https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/matchup?gameId=401025813)** > > Visit ESPN for the team statistics of the UMBC Retrievers vs. Virginia Cavaliers NCAAM basketball game on March 16, 2018 Field goal percentage: 54% vs 41% 3 point percentage: 50% vs 18% Free throw percentage: 71% vs 50% Rebounds: 33 vs 22 Assists: 16 vs 5 Dennis ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/34 "2018-03-19T05:11:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Paying out for unlikely wins is not a “loss”, the bets are designed so the bookie wins no matter who wins the game, that’s what odds are about. That bookie probably made ten times that from the people who bet on Virginia. Unlikely winners are probably better for bookies than if the favorite wins. They try to set odds so that there’s equal action on both sides. They don’t always succeed. Bookies would have lost many millions if McGregor had beaten Mayweather, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/35 "2018-03-19T14:41:56Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What was the non-childish answer? > > To me, that’s about as polite a response as one could expect. > > And actually, a 16 **had** won before. (Fight fiercely, Harvard! :D) A _men’s_ 16 had never won before. The non childish answer would have been “Yes” or “Of course.” I guess it’s the “thanks for bringing that up again” that rubbed me the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/36 "2018-03-19T14:54:50Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Here are the complete Virginia - UMBC game stats: > > [UMBC 74-54 Virginia (Mar 16, 2018) Game Stats - ESPN](http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/matchup?gameId=401025813) > > Field goal percentage: 54% vs 41% > > 3 point percentage: 50% vs 18% > > Free throw percentage: 71% vs 50% > > Rebounds: 33 vs 22 > > Assists: 16 vs 5 > > Dennis To me, the key stat was 3-pointers. I watched the second half of the game (should have gone to bed, but you know, potential history in the making…), and I think the eye test bears out the stat: If Virginia had hit three pointers at the same percentage as UMBC, even with all the garbage-time points by UMBC, Virginia would have won by one point. Yeah, maybe UMBCs defense had something to do with a lower UVa shooting %, but it’s not like UMBC’s threes were all wide-open uncontested shots taken by peak Steph Curry; there’s no way they hit 50% of threes in a rematch. And a chunk of that 20-point margin was from late-game UVa desperate gambling. Which says, 1. UVa didn’t play that badly; sometimes the rim just likes the other team more, and 2. UMBC did play a hell of a game; even without shot-luck they played UVa basically even. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/37 "2018-03-19T18:13:48Z")
The thing with Virginia (and with Wisconsin earlier, with Bennett’s dad coaching) is they are not built for the Tournament, but the regular season, where teams don’t play as hard. Defense only gets you so far. You have to be able to stay focused when you are trying to score and don’t have scorers, but it’s hard. Your defense falls apart. If you look in the rafters at Wisconsin (who was coached by Bennett’s long-term assistant after Bennett “retired”) and Virginia you’ll see lots of regular season banners but little from the Tournament. They seem to think that having to score is some sort of weakness. Bo Ryan at Wisconsin seemed to finally figure it out. His teams started to show up in the Final Four but they only made the title game when they had two NBA First-Round draft picks. Both guys could create their own shots and score enough to keep their teams close. You saw the old-school Bennetts vs. UMBC. I’ve got to remember to never pick a team that isn’t balanced or at least has one offensive star. Two preferably so the opposition can’t just collapse on one **cough-Arizona-cough**. Syracuse is an example of a great defensive team that always has a scorer around. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/38 "2018-03-19T18:26:01Z")
Speaking of Syracuse, has a play-in team ever advanced this far in the tournament? I mean, this is a team that many howled over even being included in it, and the naysayers had a point…'Cuse had a terrible season. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/39 "2018-03-19T19:23:23Z")
Perhaps it’s time to stop the carving of Tom Izzo’s mug on Mt. Rushmore. For the past few years, his teams have been great underachievers. This year’s team was supposed to be world beaters, but they just didn’t gel and it seemed like for all their talented players, they were perpetually overmatched. He’s a great guy and all, but it seems like his run of Final Four appearances isn’t coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713/40 "2018-03-19T19:43:44Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Speaking of Syracuse, has a play-in team ever advanced this far in the tournament? I mean, this is a team that many howled over even being included in it, and the naysayers had a point…'Cuse had a terrible season. No. First time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umbc-becomes-1st-16-seed-to-beat-a-1-seed/810713.md?page=3)