# Umpires give a free out, free win to WhiteSox **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013 "2005-10-13T03:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/81 "2005-10-13T16:18:09Z")
> [@micahjn](#): > > What I do think is interesting, is that Pierszynski immediately sensed something different about the way the umpire called him out. He’d been behind the plate all game, and something about the way Eddings called the strike was different enough to make him think he should run down to first. Had Josh Paul been catching the whole game, I think he would have tagged him or thrown to first. According to cnn/si, Eddings had already caught Pierszynski napping in the second on an identical call when he was catching. He thought he had a srikeout against Anderson and had already fired the ball to third base before Eddings let him know he thought it was a no-catch. So Pierszynski would have had it in his head to play through ALL third-strike plays the rest of the night with that ump… ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/82 "2005-10-13T16:20:26Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I’ve seen close up video of the ball going into the guy’s glove. There’s no way the ball changed directions or kicked up dirt. Where the fuck do you people come up with this nonsense? By 10 AM EST the ball will have rolled to the backstop. > > The video is here: [http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp](http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp) > > That thing the ball hits is his glove. I watched the link repeatedly. The umpire’s call is correct. You can clearly see the ball strike the ground and bounce _up_ into the catcher’s glove. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/83 "2005-10-13T16:25:35Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I watched the link repeatedly. > > The umpire’s call is correct. You can **clearly** see the ball strike the ground and bounce _up_ into the catcher’s glove. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/84 "2005-10-13T16:44:13Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > I take it you didn’t watch Scioscia’s interview after the game. He said that regardless of that one call, they shouldn’t have been in a position to depend on that out, and they didn’t win because they didn’t deserve to. He still disagreed with the call, but went on to say they didn’t play as hard as they should have. I can’t find the full interview, does anyone by chance have a link? Oh take a pill. And wipe your glasses. He was watching the game with two Cub fans, haters of all things White Sox, and they managed to see both the complaining and blame. Clean the hate and invectives from your eyes and you’d see it too. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/85 "2005-10-13T16:44:15Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I watched the link repeatedly. > > The umpire’s call is correct. You can clearly see the ball strike the ground and bounce _up_ into the catcher’s glove. Well, your assessment is clearly in the minority, and even the ever vocal and opinionated Ozzie Guillen dodged the question when he was asked about the play. I do believe the ball did change direction. I also think the ball was in the mitt when this happened, with the bottom of the webbing of the catcher’s mitt being against the ground. Lack of dirt seems to confirm my observations. Regardless, the ump should have been clearer and fucked up. With the way Buehrle was pitching and the lack of Angels bats, the Sox probably would have won the game anyway. But I don’t like seeing this kind of finish. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/86 "2005-10-13T16:53:19Z")
[ESPN](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2005/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&id=2189660) has a larger video then MLB. Looks to me like a clean catch. Catcher deserved a bit of the blame for not being, well, paranoid about a horrible call possibly being made (and I don’t mean that sarcastically), but blue borked the call. And if extending his arm to the right _and_ a fist pump with his left hand is how he merely calls a strike, he’s an idiot, too. Does he do a roundhouse if someone’s out at the plate? > [@Dio](#): > > Pierszynski (himself a catcher who had been observing this ump close up Er… AJ’s in _front_ of the umpire. All that said, Anaheim gets screwed? I say “🆒.” Bitter? Me? No! ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/87 "2005-10-13T17:03:55Z")
So I’m an asshole, maybe I should be the one to take the pill huh? Scioscia’s right it never should have come to that but it did. His catcher wasn’t playing smart, and AJ was. In sports, you play til you hear a whistle, or in this case til you hear “out” being called. Caught napping, or if you will, being “glib”. The dust I saw kicked up came as the ball skipped and threw dust behind Paul’s glove. Maybe it was from his glove as the ball hit, maybe it was from the ball, who can tell? Everyone has seen the same replays, and yet there’s two clear divisions on what happened. People with the advantage of looking at replays and close ups can’t agree, yet that makes the umps wrong or right when they have to make the call on the spot without advantage of replay. They called what they called, and everyone lives with it. The Sox, like every other team in the league has lost games due to their share of umpire fuckovers, yesterday was the Angels’ turn. Oh sorry, was that glib and condescending, or just realistic? By the way, sometimes you can tell the assholes by the way they make arguments and personal and resort to name calling to prove their point. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/88 "2005-10-13T17:11:00Z")
Well, whatever else happened, at least the result gets ChiSox third base coach Joey Cora off the hook. I mean, what the fuck was he thinking sending Aaron Rowand home after that double down the right field line? Rowand would have been at third base with no-one out. I can understand sending the runner if there’s two out, but with no-one out the odds of getting a runner home from third are pretty damn good. All it takes is an outfield fly, or even an infield grounder that doesn’t go straight to a fielder. The fly ball hit by Crede two batters later would have got him home on a sacrifice, and the White Sox would have been up 2-1. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/89 "2005-10-13T17:12:00Z")
Just to shed a little humor on this…This was posted on a blog on the **Chicago Tribune** site: "Last white sox world series title: 1917 Last flu pandemic: 1918 Next potential white sox world series title: 2005 Next potential flu pandemic: 2006" So at least history’s on the White Sox’ side… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/90 "2005-10-13T17:12:28Z")
> [@mr bus guy](#): > > Oh take a pill. And wipe your glasses. I was watching the game with two Cub fans, haters of all things White Sox, and they managed to see both the dirt and the change of direction. > > Clean the hate and invectives from your eyes and you’d see it too. > [@mr bus guy](#): > > By the way, sometimes you can tell the assholes by the way they make arguments Exactly how I came to that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/91 "2005-10-13T17:13:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, whatever else happened, at least the result gets ChiSox third base coach Joey Cora off the hook. I mean, what the fuck was he thinking sending Aaron Rowand home after that double down the right field line? Rowand would have been at third base with no-one out. > > I can understand sending the runner if there’s two out, but with no-one out the odds of getting a runner home from third are pretty damn good. All it takes is an outfield fly, or even an infield grounder that doesn’t go straight to a fielder. The fly ball hit by Crede two batters later would have got him home on a sacrifice, and the White Sox would have been up 2-1. Amen. I almost threw an empty bottle at the TV when I saw that. And who isn’t telling Crede to get back to 2nd on a short fly ball so he can get doubled off? Cora. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/92 "2005-10-13T17:13:46Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, whatever else happened, at least the result gets ChiSox third base coach Joey Cora off the hook. I mean, what the fuck was he thinking sending Aaron Rowand home after that double down the right field line? Rowand would have been at third base with no-one out. No kidding. My Dad and I were still bitching about that in the 9th. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/93 "2005-10-13T17:15:45Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Exactly how I came to that conclusion. Hey! Me too! ---
**Author:** ![Man\_from\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Man\_from\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_from_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/94 "2005-10-13T17:35:46Z")
There was a significant misunderstanding between the ump and the Angels players. The ump clearly pumped his fist after signalling a strike (or strikeout?). But supposedly he had been doing this all night to signal strikes. Why he would be ambiguous in this way is strange. Even Scioscia, in his initial confrontation with the ump, can be seen pumping his fist and saying something along the lines of “you called him out. You called him out.” Before this, the ump is seen telling one of the players, “I never called him out,” seemingly in reply to that player’s own understanding of the result of the play. What may have happened is that the Angels players, including the catcher, went through the motions after getting their third out, but the batter, being particularly sharp remembered that this particular umpire’s quirky way of calling strikes and outs meant he was still alive, so he took a harmless sprint toward base and it worked out right for him and his team. Perhaps there is no consensus in the rules on how an ump signals an out or strikeout? This is strange. What if an ump determines that the best way to signal a player or coach’s ejection is to give him a big, friendly bear hug or to pat him on the butt? I always figured that pumping a fist meant an out was officially made and that sweeping your arms across and away from your body meant a runner had safely reached the next base. I’m surprised that these signals are not officially recognized but seemingly open to some kind of artistic interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/95 "2005-10-13T17:47:01Z")
Umpires are given fairly wide latitude on exactly how they make hand signals to call strikes and outs. If I recall correctly, a general “make a pointing gesture with your right hand” is all the specific direction they’re given when calling strikes behind the plate. I remember seeing a documentary about umpiring several years ago in which umps are even told to develop their own characteristic motion, and be consistent with it, so that it becomes their “style”. I think the “consistent” part was missing from this guy’s performance last night. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/96 "2005-10-13T18:05:18Z")
> [@mr bus guy](#): > > I think the “consistent” part was missing from this guy’s performance last night. Well, even if he was 100% consistent with the call, it’s still a problem if the same gesture means a completely different thing than what is accepted by MLB as a whole. Fist pump=out, any way you slice it. > [@Tony](#): > > the batter, being particularly sharp The batter, AJ Pierzynski- a cather himself- was [victimized](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/13/ALCS.TMP) by a similar play last year. Makes sense he’d remember it and run, just in case. > [@SF Chronicle](#): > > While catching for the Giants on June 20 of last year, A.J. Pierzynski dropped a third strike against the Red Sox, but he didn’t tag the batter, Bronson Arroyo, who headed back to the Boston dugout. Pierzynski went to the mound to talk to Giants pitcher Jason Schmidt, and at the urging of his teammates, Arroyo turned and made it safely to first. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/97 "2005-10-13T18:23:29Z")
> [@Troy McClure SF](#): > > The batter, AJ Pierzynski- a cather himself- was [victimized](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/13/ALCS.TMP) by a similar play last year. Makes sense he’d remember it and run, just in case. They mentioned that on the local news after the game. No question that regardless if the ball bounced or not, the umps blew the way they handled it. Who’s betting something doesn’t come out of the off-season about hand signal standardization? ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/98 "2005-10-13T18:26:09Z")
I kinda hope not… maybe just a simple request like, “don’t have really stupid hand gestures.” ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/99 "2005-10-13T18:28:35Z")
> [@Troy McClure SF](#): > > I kinda hope not… maybe just a simple request like, “don’t have really stupid hand gestures.” ::hands over my ears screaming:: Too many rules!!! Micromanagement!!! You’ve read the Official Rules of Baseball? A simple thing like that will add four paragraphs, minimum. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013/100 "2005-10-13T18:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=Troy McClure SFLooks to me like a clean catch. Catcher deserved a bit of the blame for not being, well, paranoid about a horrible call possibly being made (and I don’t mean that sarcastically), but blue borked the call. And if extending his arm to the right _and_ a fist pump with his left hand is how he merely calls a strike, he’s an idiot, too. Does he do a roundhouse if someone’s out at the plate?[/QUOTE] That, really, is the point here. In the end it doesn’t really matter if the ball was caught cleanly or not. You could go either way; that’s fine, it’s part of baseball. The real problem here is that the umpire didn’t clearly make the call. If Eddings cannot clearly get across that two motions DON’T mean “Strike three, you’re out,” he’s a shitty umpire. It’s Doug Eddings’s job to clearly indicate what the call is. It is not the job of the Angels or White Sox to divine from his actions, based on past experience, what his little hand motions mean. Eddings has a responsibility as a major league umpire to make it absolutely crystal clear what he’s calling. And his call was as confusing to me, a player and umpire for 20 years, as it was to the Angels, as it was to anyone else. Eddings fucked up by making a BAD call, not a wrong call. He deserves scorn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/umpires-give-a-free-out-free-win-to-whitesox/326013.md?page=6)