# UN: Shut down Gitmo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847 "2006-02-16T18:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/21 "2006-02-16T21:50:38Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Martin, i’m going to let others respond to the total lack of empathy and shortsightedness you’ve shown in this post, because I find myself unable to respond to it without getting angry. > > Instead, i’d like to ask you this: your post seems to imply that you certainly do believe that there a good many innocent people at Guantanamo. Am I reading too much into your post? Sure there are innocent people in Gitmo. Like I said, they should be released for PR reasons. Should they also be released for other reasons? Sure, but those reasons are absolutely meaningless in the context of national decisionmaking. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/22 "2006-02-16T21:52:13Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Justice is a virtue. Buddy, you’ve been kicked around a bit lately. Most of it was deserved. I guess there are lots of ways to react to that, but your way is just to dig in your heels, and up the anti with ever more inflammatory statements. You need to take a break and get some perspective. > > Ironically, while keeping folks prisoner for questionable reasons isn’t a virtue, it DOES satisfy all 7 corporal works of mercy! > > Feed the hungry prisoners > Water the thirsty prisoners > Shelter the prisoners (in concrete bunkers) > Keep the prisoners clothed > Visit the prisoners when they’re sick > Minister to the prisoners (and later jail the minister) > Bury dead prisoners Empathy+Compassion don’t = justice. Justice and honor are virtues, I never said otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/23 "2006-02-16T21:53:27Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Sure there are innocent people in Gitmo. > > Like I said, they should be released for PR reasons. > > Should they also be released for other reasons? Sure, but those reasons are absolutely meaningless in the context of national decisionmaking. My jaw is literally on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/24 "2006-02-16T21:56:20Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Compassion and empathy aren’t virtues. Spoken like a true sociopath. And _we’re_ the ones who are mentally ill degenerates? You’re a right cunt, you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/25 "2006-02-16T22:02:32Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Empathy+Compassion don’t = justice. > > Justice and honor are virtues, I never said otherwise. If you want to pick nits, get your facts straight, you fucking mule. The cardinal virtues are: prudence, temperance, courage, justice. The heavenly virtues are: faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence . If honor is a virtuous because you say so, then so is empathy because I say it is. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/26 "2006-02-16T22:02:46Z")
…man, my threads never turn out like this! ☹ :: watches as his Guantanemo thread slinks off the front page :: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/27 "2006-02-16T22:02:55Z")
Ahhhh, they’re 1920’s-style “Death Shotguns”. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/28 "2006-02-16T22:06:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Spoken like a true sociopath. And _we’re_ the ones who are mentally ill degenerates? > > You’re a right cunt, you know that? Thanks :). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/29 "2006-02-16T22:08:00Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > If you want to pick nits, get your facts straight, you fucking mule. > > The cardinal virtues are: prudence, temperance, courage, justice. The heavenly virtues are: faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence . > > If honor is a virtuous because you say so, then so is empathy because I say it is. I do agree virtues are in the eye of the beholder. I wasn’t working off of either the cardinal or heavenly virtues. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/30 "2006-02-16T22:10:21Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …man, my threads never turn out like this! ☹ > > :: watches as his Guantanemo thread slinks off the front page :: BB, you were far too polite, and didn’t enrage the other side enough to respond. As you said in that thread: > [@](#): > > I’m not a big ranter, so my BBQ rant does need a little bit of help from fellow dopers…I’m loathe to throw in the obligatory “@# Bush!” that it seems this thread requires, so I hope someone throws in the nessecery invectives. Invective is what gets threads going! (Though it can also lead to train wrecks, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/31 "2006-02-16T22:17:09Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I do agree virtues are in the eye of the beholder. > > I wasn’t working off of either the cardinal or heavenly virtues. Which means you see no virtue in empathy, and that is your chosen position. I’m sure your parents are so proud in those moments when they aren’t flinging dung in the forest canopy. You have also chosen to admit there is virtue in justice and that there may be innocent people imprisoned. Don’t feel you need to explain this to me. Explain it to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![deevee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@deevee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deevee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/32 "2006-02-16T22:22:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You’re a right cunt, you know that? Nope. He’s a **wrong** cunt. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/33 "2006-02-16T22:25:27Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Which means you see no virtue in empathy, and that is your chosen position. I’m sure your parents are so proud in those moments when they aren’t flinging dung in the forest canopy. > > You have also chosen to admit there is virtue in justice and that there may be innocent people imprisoned. Don’t feel you need to explain this to me. Explain it to yourself. Empathy and justice are good things. In people. Governments and states are not people and it is folly for them to try and act that way. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/34 "2006-02-16T22:37:47Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Invective is what gets threads going! (Though it can also lead to train wrecks, of course). Or pile ons. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/35 "2006-02-16T22:39:30Z")
> [@deevee](#): > > Nope. He’s a **wrong** cunt. Nope. He’s a **cunt’s** cunt. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/36 "2006-02-16T22:46:58Z")
Damn, just what is it you people have against cunts? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/37 "2006-02-16T22:56:55Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Empathy and justice are good things. > > In people. > > Governments and states are not people and it is folly for them to try and act that way. That’s the rationale for every atrocity that’s ever been commited under the banner of statehood. You’re a fucking psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/38 "2006-02-16T22:58:59Z")
Well **Martin** , since we are determining what is virtuous and what is not, perhaps you can help me with these questions: Is law a virtue? Or is the rule of law something that should be set aside whenever a nation thinks it is appropriate? Are there any circumstances where individuals can vituously break the law? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/39 "2006-02-16T23:32:10Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Governments and states are not people and it is folly for them to try and act that way. Psst. Read the preamble to the US Constitution when you get a chance. I think it makes passing reference to justice and liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/40 "2006-02-16T23:38:36Z")
Wait a minute. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Empathy and justice are good things. > > In people. > > Governments and states are not people and it is folly for them to try and act that way. It is folly for governments to act like _justice_ is a good thing? I think this answers my questions in my previous post but it raises some new ones: Does this ignoring of justice for governments apply to only national governments? What about state governments? City? If justice means nothing to governments can the federal government seize your property without compensation if it deems it is good for the nation? What about the city you live in; can they seize your property without compensating you for the good of the city? If yes: Why do you live here? You obviously do not care about the values this nation was founded on. If no: Why can this law not be set aside, but others enumerated in the Constitution can? What is the difference? Note: I don’t know you and I am trying to ask these questions of you seriously. I’m not sure though from your responses in this thread that you are capable of this level of discourse. Is this the case? Am I wasting my time here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847.md?page=3)