# UN: Shut down Gitmo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847 "2006-02-16T18:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/41 "2006-02-16T23:53:35Z")
> [@Eyer8](#): > > Well **Martin** , since we are determining what is virtuous and what is not, perhaps you can help me with these questions: > > Is law a virtue? Or is the rule of law something that should be set aside whenever a nation thinks it is appropriate? Are there any circumstances where individuals can vituously break the law? Skirting with Godwin’s law there. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/42 "2006-02-17T00:03:28Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Skirting with Godwin’s law there. Huh? Wazzat? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/43 "2006-02-17T03:12:33Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Skirting with Godwin’s law there. Godwin’s Law isn’t something you can invoke by saying, “Ha! I know what YOU’RE up to with that line of questioning and I’m not going to let you swing things around to Nazi Germany so it makes me look bad!” There were no references to Nazis, Germans, Hitler, or even Jews in the post that you quoted. Your response would have made as much sense had it been a Dadaist diatribe involving four iterations of “salmon” and a splash of Chartreuse. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/44 "2006-02-17T03:16:34Z")
Eh **jayjay** , he must have just misspelled “I’m going to be a coward and evade and obfuscate rather than respond in a substantive manner.” Happens to the best of us. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/45 "2006-02-17T03:26:30Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > The U.S. cannot operate its policies on the basis of individual concerns. But why can’t it operate in the name of the freedoms and values that it claims to be defending? If the principles of American freedom, democracy, and rule of law really _are_ worth exporting to the rest of the world, sure the best way to prove that is to operate by those principles ourselves, rather than abrogating them. It’s a pretty weak system that pushes aside and ignores its basic tenets while claiming to defend them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/46 "2006-02-17T03:29:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If the principles of American freedom, democracy, and rule of law really _are_ worth exporting to the rest of the world, sure the best way to prove that is to operate by those principles ourselves, rather than abrogating them. It’s a pretty weak system that pushes aside and ignores its basic tenets while claiming to defend them. But we have ‘em in this here lockbox (PROJECT PANDORA, details Classified), waitin’ for the day when it’s safe to release 'em into their natural habitat again. ‘Til then, well…we’re just tryin’ to make a better world for those values… ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/47 "2006-02-17T03:46:45Z")
I see **Martin Hyde** is maintaining his strong lead as the Most Hated Doper of the Year. At this rate he could make it as Most Hated Doper Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/48 "2006-02-17T04:05:31Z")
Frankly, distasteful as Martin’s attitude is, there are aspects of his post #2 that are a lot better than they could be. OK, his post evidences a total lack of concern for justice, compassion etc, but at least he’s not such a lockstep Bushista that he can recognise that shutting Gitmo might be a good idea despite it not being Bush admin policy to do so. Recognising that sometimes you have to let guys go (even though you have suspicions) because you can’t prove anything is substantially better than I’ve heard from some people. Recognising that locking up a few terrorist footsoldiers (even assuming that is what they are) is totally pointless because they are just going to be replaced anyway is also substantially more sensible than I’ve heard from some others. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/49 "2006-02-17T08:15:19Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Empathy and justice are good things. > > In people. > > Governments and states are not people and it is folly for them to try and act that way. Instead of pointing out that governments and states are composed of people, and that one of the most basic principles of government is that its purpose is to secure justice, I will instead say: Fedora deodorant Post-It. Sure, it’s a string of random words, but it makes at least as much logical sense as your post, and as an added bonus, _fails_ to display a level of sociopathy that would be scientifically interesting if it were tolerable to be near long enough to etherize. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/50 "2006-02-17T10:58:40Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Skirting with Godwin’s law there. What a worm. (which was also my first thought when you stated “compassion and empathy are not virtues”) ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/51 "2006-02-17T11:04:57Z")
Look **Martin** , in all seriousness, and without meaning this as a personal attack (though my previous post to you was definitely that - I guess I’m just too unwashed and degenerate)… I really think you would benefit from psychiatric help. Of course I only have your online persona to base this on, but even so, if it were _that_ different from the real life MH that’d be pretty disturbing in itself. Of course, it might be difficult for you to find a psychiatrist you can even stand to be in the same room as, since no doubt they are all leftist cancers too. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/52 "2006-02-17T11:46:01Z")
If compassion and empathy aren’t appropriate for nation states, was I inappropriately emoting for the US as a whole when those _other_ sociopaths flew those planes into those buildings? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/53 "2006-02-17T12:26:42Z")
…do you know what the oddest thing is? The **Geneva Convention Preachers** have stopped. You know, the ones who every time a debate came up on Guantanemo, they would bring up “but they weren’t carrying weapons openly! They weren’t in uniform!” Even the **“How can a little bit of light hurt someone harpies”** have been silenced. This is why **Martin Hyde** has to resort to thread-shitting and the rest of the defenders have fled to right-wing boards: there are no arguements left to defend Guantanemo. There is no case for Guantanemo as it stands. The administration are liars. And finally (too late, unfortunately) they are being exposed for what they are. And good old Scotty McClellan got up on stage and repeated the same old talking points that we all know are lies now: > [@](#): > > think that what we are seeing is a rehash of allegations that have been made by lawyers representing some of these detainees. LIE. > [@](#): > > We know that these are dangerous terrorists that are being kept at Guantanamo Bay. Yeah, maybe as many as twenty. Weasel words that qualify as a LIE. > [@](#): > > They are people that are determined to harm innocent civilians, or harm innocent Americans. Again, maybe about twenty odd. So yeah, another lie. > [@](#): > > They were enemy combatants picked up on the battlefield in the war on terrorism. They implies most, and most were not caught on the battlefields. LIE. > [@](#): > > They are trained to provide false information. And al Qaeda training manuals talk about ways to disseminate false information and hope to get attention. …but Mr McClellan! What you are implying is, if somebody claims they are innocent, they must be telling a lie! Can you tell us how innocent people are supposed to convince you they are not guilty? > [@](#): > > But the International Committee for the Red Cross has been provided full access to the detainees. Access, yes. Full access? Not so sure about that. > [@](#): > > The military treats detainees humanely, as directed by the President of the United States. I’m sure most of the military do, but Abu Gharib, Bagram, Baghad Airport, and the rest of the detention facilities that the US runs (including many secret ones) puts a lie to your statement. > [@](#): > > And the United Nations should be making serious investigations across the world, and there are many instances when they do, when it comes to human rights. This was not one of them. Oh yes it is Scotty. > [@](#): > > And I think it’s a discredit to the U.N. when a team like this goes about rushing to report something when they haven’t even looked into the facts. All they have done is look at the allegations. Scotty, the report has been in progress since **2002.** I suppose you could call that a rush considering your administrations slow movement on detainee rights, but to be honest I’m really not surprised. And the facts? You complain that someone else hasn’t looked into the FACTS? Good lord Scotty you are a dick. Hop on the internet and find my thread on Guantanemo, and maybe you could learn some of the “facts.” > **[Guantanemo Bay Revisited...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=358963)** > > …this started out in my head as a Great Debate, but after a few minutes of typing, I realized there wasn’t much to debate. I first posted about Guantanemo Bay back in 2004. I followed that up a few weeks ago with this great debate thread that... (Does anyone want to pony up the membership fee for Scotty? I would love to give him a debate on these boards!) > [@](#): > > Q Scott, you said the U.N. team that didn’t go to Guantanamo was offered the same kind of access as congressional leaders. U.N. team says that the reason it didn’t go was because it was not going to be given access to the prisoners themselves, and that it saw no point in going, although it mentioned that it had good cooperation with the U.S. military. Why was it not possible to give the U.N. team direct access to the prisoners – > > MR. McCLELLAN: \*\*I don’t know that that’s accurate characterization. I think they were going to be provided good access to the facilities there, and I don’t know that’s an accurate description. \*\*I think you ought to direct that to the Department of Defense, as well as maybe our U.S. office at the United Nations. I don’t think – I don’t know that that’s an – I don’t know that’s accurate, Victoria. > **[Briefing Room | The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/)** LIES. More weasel words from the Bush Administrations chief weasel. He knows damm well the reason why the UN didn’t visit Guantanemo, and if he truely didn’t that would make him an imcompetent arse. I’ve been making the same arguements about Guantanemo Bay since 2003, when the “GC Preachers” were at their loudest. But weasels like **Martin Hyde** will dismiss the work of the “academics”, because he claims the evidence is incomplete. Well he’s right that the evidence is imcomplete, as the Denbeaux Report was missing the “Secret Evidence”, like memo’s that were cited by **Finnagain** earlier in the thread. But if **Martin** had chosen to actually read the report, and if he had bothered to find and read the raw data that went into the report, he would have come to the only possible conclusion: that most of the people at Camp X-Ray have not done a damm thing to the United States. They didn’t want to hurt it, they didn’t want to bomb it, they didn’t want to hurt your damm precious freedom. Prior to the Denbeaux Report, my guess was at the most, 50% of the prisoners at Camp-Xray etc were probably innocent of anything except maybe petty crime or being conscripted into the Taliban Army. After reading it, I now revise that figure to about 80%. The worst person they have locked up their at the moment is the alleged “20th” hijacker, and the next worse would probably be Bin Laden’s driver. All the rest of the bad guys are everywhere else but Guantanemo. They’re escaping prisons in Afghanistan or Yemen. They are locked up in some “secret” prison somewhere else in the world. There are no Taliban government members at Guantanemo. No Taliban Mayors. No Taliban Police chiefs. No high profile Taliban detainees at all. But plenty of alleged “soldiers.” Plenty of cooks. A couple of Pakistani satirists were released after three years of detention a couple of months ago. (Their “crime” for anyone interested, was putting up a fake bounty for 5 million Afghanis(US$113. ) for the arrest of Bill Clinton written in 1998) And again, I haven’t even scratched the surface of the problems at Guantanemo and the rest of the US detention facilitities around the world. :: looks at his watch and what he typed :: hmmm, that wasn’t supposed to be a big rant, I only wanted to post a couple of sentences! Boy this topic gets my gander up… ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/54 "2006-02-17T14:03:29Z")
If you’re tallying up facts rather than speculation, Gitmo has more moral authority to tell the U.N. to shut down rather than vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/55 "2006-02-17T14:46:39Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > If you’re tallying up facts rather than speculation, Gitmo has more moral authority to tell the U.N. to shut down rather than vice versa. How does a detention camp tell a [charter](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) to “shut down”, exactly? Do you mean to say that the _US_ has moral authority to tell, say, [Russia](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya4/) to close _its_ arbitrary detention camps? Or do the members of the [UN working group](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs26.htm) _themselves_ imprison people without trial? ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/56 "2006-02-17T16:20:58Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > If you’re tallying up facts rather than speculation, Gitmo has more moral authority to tell the U.N. to shut down rather than vice versa. Gitmo doesn’t have the “moral authority” to blow its nose, if you’ll excuse the anthropomorphization. Seriously, this is the first I’ve heard, that a system of detention without charge or trial, and zero accountability, and especially one practiced for over four years now on a group of people, many of whom the accusers admit now have jack shit to do with terrorism, can have any “moral authority” about anything. I guess this is the pre-enlightenment version of “moral authority”, that exerted by despots. Gitmo is a gigantic sign the US government is holding up to the world to say, “You know that revolution we had that we keep banging on about? Well it never happened. Nothing changed. Human rights are a myth. We are your lords and masters, and we rule by might, and are therefore right”. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/57 "2006-02-17T18:20:02Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > If you’re tallying up facts rather than speculation, Gitmo has more moral authority to tell the U.N. to shut down rather than vice versa. Yeah, how do you figure? Brilliant post **Mhendo**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/58 "2006-02-17T18:46:41Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Yeah, how do you figure? > > Brilliant post **Mhendo**. Aw, shucks, thanks. Unfortunately, recent experience on these Boards has led me to conclude that refuting **Martin Hyde** ’s “arguments” does not exactly require brilliance. A basic acquaintance with reason and logic, combined with an ability to form two-syllable words, is usually sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/59 "2006-02-17T22:53:14Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Gitmo doesn’t have the “moral authority” to blow its nose, if you’ll excuse the anthropomorphization. > > Seriously, this is the first I’ve heard, that a system of detention without charge or trial, and zero accountability, and especially one practiced for over four years now on a group of people, many of whom the accusers admit now have jack shit to do with terrorism, can have any “moral authority” about anything. I guess this is the pre-enlightenment version of “moral authority”, that exerted by despots. > > Gitmo is a gigantic sign the US government is holding up to the world to say, “You know that revolution we had that we keep banging on about? Well it never happened. Nothing changed. Human rights are a myth. We are your lords and masters, and we rule by might, and are therefore right”. I practice these arts and am bound to acknowledge I am impressed by this. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847/60 "2006-02-18T02:55:16Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Nope. He’s a **cunt’s** cunt. He is soooooo gay. no, I haven’t read the thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/un-shut-down-gitmo/344847.md?page=2)