# Unacknowledged Greatness over Decades **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841 "2006-04-30T16:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/1 "2006-04-30T16:26:46Z")
Does anyone have any good examples of someone whose greatness in a field remains (or remained) relatively unacknowledged, not just over years, but over decades? By a field, I mean that you can name any sort of profession (or even hobby) in which someone can work for a long time. It could be a musician, an actor, an artist, or any other field of art or entertainment. It could be an academic or a public intellectual. It could be a sports figure. It could be anyone who was historically important but little known. The point is that they have to have worked in their field for decades and done great work without quite getting the recognition they deserved. My example of this is Garry Wills, probably the best American public intellectual over the past three decades, even though he’s gotten only moderate recognition. Yeah, he won one Pulitzer Prize and his essays get regularly published in _The New York Review of Books_, but he’s still not that well known. He’s turned out a little more than a book a year over the past three or four decades. He’s done brilliant analyses of American history and politics. He’s done good books on religion. He’s done books on John Wayne, the city of Venice, Henry Adams, and the University of Virginia. And yet he doesn’t have that much public recognition. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/2 "2006-05-01T01:36:54Z")
Here’s one for you that is very dear to my heart: Andrew Haswell Green. He may be a little “local” for you, but he certainly fits the bill. Green was a tireless 19th-century planner, reformer and preservationist who, in a fifty-year career, literally transformed New York into a world-class city. Central Park, Riverside Park, the street plan and improvements of northern Manhattan, the American Museum of Natural History, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the New York Public Library, the Bronx Zoo/Wildlife Conservation Society (previously the NY Zoological Society) and much, much more exist because Green planned or proposed them. But his greatest achievement was as the mastermind of the consolidation of the municipalities around NY Harbor into one city in 1898; NYC expanded from 60 sq. miles to 300 sq. miles in a stroke. And, I have not even mentioned his reform or preservation work. All this, and today he is utterly forgotten. If you ask any NYer – even a city planner or history buff – who Andrew Green was, you’ll get a blank stare about 99 out of 100 times. Trust me, I know this from personal experience. They all know Robert Moses and Frederick Law Olmsted, two other great NY planners. But Green – who is at least their equal, and probably their better – is a nobody. Go to my website [andrewhgreen.net](http://andrewhgreen.net/) if you want to learn more. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/3 "2006-05-01T02:24:14Z")
Gustav Mahler seems to qualify: _[In](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663) his own lifetime he was generally regarded as a conductor who composed on the side, producing huge, bizarre symphonies accepted only by a cult following_. So does Johann Sebastian Bach, surprisingly: _[Johann](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:6980) Sebastian Bach was better known as a virtuoso organist than as a composer in his day. …[snip]… Many consider him the greatest composer of all time._ ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/4 "2006-05-01T02:26:34Z")
How about Harry Warren? He’s one of the great American popular composers of the 1930s, yet his name is unknown to most. And that’s not because his songs have been forgotten: some titles include “Shuffle Off to Bufalo,” “Chattanooga Choo Choo,” “We’re In the Money,” “I Only Have Eyes for You,” “Jeepers Creepers,” “42nd Street,” “Lullabye of Broadway,” “That’s Amore,” and “You Must Have Been a Beautiful Baby.” Many of his songs were featured in Looney Tunes (he worked for Warner Brothers, so they could be used for free). Yet when they did the musical **42nd Street** on Broadway, featuring his songs, his name was never mentioned. The best collection of his tunes is called “Lullabye of Broadway: The Best of Busby Berkeley at Warner Brothers” (he didn’t write all the songs on it, but most of them are his). In rock music, I’d nominate the Kinks. One of the greatest of the British Invasion groups (surpassed only by the Beatles, the Stones, and the Who), yet they never get the recognition they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/5 "2006-05-05T12:32:24Z")
Doesn’t anyone else have any examples of this? I’m particularly looking for examples where the person is still not well known. It’s interesting to know that Mahler and Bach weren’t appreciated in their times, but I’m really trying to learn about people that I haven’t heard of before. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/6 "2006-05-05T13:04:47Z")
I’d say that at least 75% of what’s known about British & Commonwealth Military Firearms is thanks to the work of Ian Skennerton, an Australian historian, collector, and author who’s published the definitive works on the Lee-Enfield rifle (_The Lee-Enfield Story_), and the Enfield No 2 .380 revolver (_.380 Enfield No 2 Revolver_), as well as series of handy guides known as the _Small Arms Identification Series_. Of course, you have to be a serious collector or historian to be aware of his work, but if you have a look in the bibliographies of most firearm books dealing even tangentially with British or Commonwealth arms, you’re likely to see some of his work referenced. Even so, to non-collectors and the general public, his name would be largely unfamiliar, which is a shame when you consider how important his work is. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/7 "2006-05-05T13:13:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Doesn’t anyone else have any examples of this? Check out a book called **The Experts Speak** by Victor S. Navasky and Christopher Cerf [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679778063/qid=1146834598/sr=2-1/ref=pd\_bbs\_b\_2\_1/002-8617012-4896809?s=books&v=glance&n=283155](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679778063/qid=1146834598/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8617012-4896809?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) It’s a collection of cases where Experts were very notably wrong, including a great many cases of experts in their field not appreciating their contemporaries. One case has an agent telling Burt Reynolds and Clint Eastwood thast neither of them would amount to anything , at the same time. Or the agent that told Elvis Presley he should go back to driving a truck, because he didn’t have any talent. The book is fully footnoted, but still should be taken with a grain of salt. They’re the ones responsible for perpetuating the story that a Patent Office official really suggested closing the Patent Office because eveything had been invented – a story debunked _twice_ in the pages of _The Skeptical Inquirer_. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/8 "2006-05-05T13:30:17Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Gustav Mahler seems to qualify: _[In](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663) his own lifetime he was generally regarded as a conductor who composed on the side, producing huge, bizarre symphonies accepted only by a cult following_. > > So does Johann Sebastian Bach, surprisingly: _[Johann](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:6980) Sebastian Bach was better known as a virtuoso organist than as a composer in his day. …[snip]… Many consider him the greatest composer of all time._ Mahler has a huge international following and is admired by many Americans. He’s certainly not mainstream, but is held in high regard by many, many people. Not sure how Bach could be considered overlooked. His genius is acknowledged by hundreds of millions. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/9 "2006-05-05T13:48:46Z")
How about [Danny Gatton](http://www.dannygatton.com/wama.html)? A fantastic guitarist most people have never heard of. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/10 "2006-05-05T13:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Mahler has a huge international following and is admired by many Americans. He’s certainly not mainstream, but is held in high regard by many, many people. > > Not sure how Bach could be considered overlooked. His genius is acknowledged by hundreds of millions I think you missed it – the OP was saying that, although very well known today, Mahler and Bach were less well known and appreciatede – at least as composers – in their own day. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/11 "2006-05-05T15:00:36Z")
Ditto on Danny Gatton. Also, the huge success of Delta blues musician Robert Johnson’s 1990 box set has not been followed by subsequent mainstream popularity of some equally great Delta artists, some of whom were direct influences on Johnson. I play music in bars. More and more blues fans seem to know the name Robert Johnson, but almost no one has heard of Charley Patton or Skip James. I think there are several reasons for this. One, Johnson’s music (which was futuristic when recorded in 1937-38) was a generation or so closer to modern, electric blues. So it’s more accessible to people raised on rock and roll. In contrast, the choppy rhythms and gravelly baritone of Patton (who recorded mostly in 1929 and 1930) sound absolutely primieval when you first hear them. But he really grows on you. In 2003, Bob Dylan said that if it were up to him, he’d play nothing but Charley Patton songs. James’ eerie, melancholy sound is unique and unforgettable. Johnson’s much-heralded “Hellhound on My Trail” is very derivative of James’ masterpiece “Devil Got My Woman”. I always tell people who like Robert Johnson’s music to check out Patton and James. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/12 "2006-05-05T15:10:05Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Gustav Mahler seems to qualify: _[In](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:7663) his own lifetime he was generally regarded as a conductor who composed on the side, producing huge, bizarre symphonies accepted only by a cult following_. > > So does Johann Sebastian Bach, surprisingly: _[Johann](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=41:6980) Sebastian Bach was better known as a virtuoso organist than as a composer in his day. …[snip]… Many consider him the greatest composer of all time._ And in the same vein… [Nancarrow](http://www.compositiontoday.com/articles/nancarrow.asp) ! I nominate him as he was totally unknown until the early eighties, so he had a good four decades of obscurity. Of course some might say, he still does! But it’s all relative… Of course Charles Ives would show a similar pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/13 "2006-05-06T03:40:56Z")
CalMeacham writes: \> It’s a collection of cases where Experts were very notably wrong, including a \> great many cases of experts in their field not appreciating their contemporaries. \> One case has an agent telling Burt Reynolds and Clint Eastwood thast neither \> of them would amount to anything , at the same time. Or the agent that told \> Elvis Presley he should go back to driving a truck, because he didn’t have any \> talent. That’s interesting, but it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Those are cases where somebody’s talents weren’t recognized by one person early in their career. I was asking for cases where somebody’s talents were unrecognized by most people for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_O_Malley_s_Cow)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/14 "2006-05-06T04:36:52Z")
Gregor Mendel. Genetics guru. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/15 "2006-05-06T05:58:06Z")
[Nikola Tesla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla). Overlooked, underappreciated, stolen from and most people have barely heard of him, yet damned little of what we take for granted in the way of electronics and communication would have been possible without his contributions to science. I can absolutely assure you that in the course of my fourteen years of American public schooling and junior college not ONCE was Tesla mentioned. I only heard the name attached to a really forgettable Sacramento hair band. Damned pity… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_O_Malley_s_Cow)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/16 "2006-05-06T05:59:28Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > [Nikola Tesla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla). Overlooked, underappreciated, stolen from and most people have barely heard of him, yet damned little of what we take for granted in the way of electronics and communication would have been possible without his contributions to science. I can absolutely assure you that in the course of my fourteen years of American public schooling and junior college not ONCE was Tesla mentioned. I only heard the name attached to a really forgettable Sacramento hair band. Damned pity… :dubious: Second this. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/17 "2006-05-06T11:42:14Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I play music in bars. More and more blues fans seem to know the name Robert Johnson, but almost no one has heard of Charley Patton or Skip James. I think there are several reasons for this. One, Johnson’s music (which was futuristic when recorded in 1937-38) was a generation or so closer to modern, electric blues. So it’s more accessible to people raised on rock and roll. > > In contrast, the choppy rhythms and gravelly baritone of Patton (who recorded mostly in 1929 and 1930) sound absolutely primieval when you first hear them. But he really grows on you. Oh, hell yeah on Patton. It also helped Johnson that he died young and romantically, with a small enough catalog that you could buy the 2-CD set and be a completist. Good call on Tesla too. Thanks for AC power, sir! That reminds me - **[Philo Farnsworth](http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/farnsworthp/farnsworthp.htm)**. How many people know who invented the TV? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/18 "2006-05-06T18:19:41Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > [Nikola Tesla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla). Overlooked, underappreciated, stolen from and most people have barely heard of him, yet damned little of what we take for granted in the way of electronics and communication would have been possible without his contributions to science. I can absolutely assure you that in the course of my fourteen years of American public schooling and junior college not ONCE was Tesla mentioned. I only heard the name attached to a really forgettable Sacramento hair band. Damned pity… :dubious: I don’t know-Tesla seems to be about the most heralded “unheralded” person in history. If you Google “Tesla”, you get 12,700,000 hits, and [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) has over 200 books concerning the man. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/19 "2006-05-06T22:23:09Z")
Howard Phillips Lovecraft and all his weird friends. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841/20 "2006-05-06T22:31:21Z")
[Fletcher Henderson](http://redhotjazz.com/fho.html), who in 1930 probably played the first real [swing music](http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/henderson/somebodylovesme.ram). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unacknowledged-greatness-over-decades/354841.md?page=2)