# Unanswered questions from Sandman **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502 "2010-09-29T18:40:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/41 "2010-10-04T22:44:39Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > A question about Daniel: is he in some sense a regeneration of Morpheus or a completely new entity altogether? > > Neither. He is the same being in that he is Dream. > > But he is not Morpheus. Morpheus was a particular facet of Dream, Daniel is a different one. I wonder if any of the others have similarly regenerated (or whatever you call it). Morpheus had at least one son (Orpheus) in one of the best but most confusing plotlines. Do any of the other Endless have children? I haven’t read the Death comics but was wondering if she did. Destruction probably can’t reproduce since that would be an act of creation. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/42 "2010-10-04T22:47:25Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Do any of the other Endless have children? Desire, of course, had at least one mortal daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/43 "2010-10-04T22:51:05Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > Do any of the other Endless have children? > > Desire, of course, had at least one mortal daughter. I vaguely remember that, but who was she? Has it ever explained Desire’s gender? By this I mean is s/he capable of being male or female as needed or is s/he both and neither at the same time? I kept hoping the Endless would make an appearance in _American Gods_ or _Anansi Boys_ but no such luck. Do you think they exist in the same Gaimanverse or that they’re different realities? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/44 "2010-10-04T22:53:49Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > > > Desire, of course, had at least one mortal daughter. > > I vaguely remember that, but who was she? Rose Walker’s mother, as discussed above. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/45 "2010-10-04T22:54:31Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > The Lucifer series, OTOH, which started with a Sandman Presents mini, is the bee’s knees. It is, indeed. The only other Sandman “spinoff” that’s worth a damn was [Sandman Mystery Theatre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandman_Mystery_Theatre), which was a re-imaging of the original character that Morpheus was inspired by. But it has basically nothing at all to do with the Sandman storyline, other than a brief nod to the link. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/46 "2010-10-04T22:55:44Z")
And of course, who would you cast as The Endless (or any other characters) in a movie? Money and their status as living or dead is no matter. My pics: **Destiny** - Orson Welles **Dream** - Johnny Depp (though if Tim Burton looks like he’s even thinking of setting foot on the set, shoot first and then swear he was breaking in) **Death** - Kate Winslet **Delirium** -Tori Amos (of course) **Destruction** - Russell Crowe **Desire** - very hard one— Alan Cumming comes to mind, but I’d probably go with a strikingly attractive unknown androgynous dancer **Despair** - Kathy Bates **Lucien** - David Thewliss **Nuala** - Anna Paquin **Cain** - Edward Everett Horton **Abel** - Sebastian Cabot ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/47 "2010-10-04T22:59:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > **Cain** - Edward Everett Horton I like it! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/48 "2010-10-04T23:00:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > > > Desire, of course, had at least one mortal daughter. > > I vaguely remember that, but who was she? Rose’s mother. It’s how Rose ended up tied into the Endless. > [@](#): > > Has it ever explained Desire’s gender? By this I mean is s/he capable of being male or female as needed or is s/he both and neither at the same time? Desire is male, female, both, neither, and any other options one could possibly think of, as Desire…desires. I don’t have my copies of the books handy at the moment to get the exact quote, but when Dream visits Desire’s citadel (a giant statue of Desire), it says something to the effect that no one gender would ever be enough for Desire. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/49 "2010-10-05T01:16:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Desire- very hard one— Alan Cumming comes to mind, but I’d probably go with a strikingly attractive unknown androgynous dancer Jaye Davidson (Crying Game, Stargate movie), I think. Cumming is definitely sexy enough, but he’s also quite certainly male, and yes, one gender, one of ANYTHING, is too limiting for Desire. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/50 "2010-10-05T06:06:10Z")
This thread is quite the wild coincidence, as I have just been re-reading the same story. Most of the OP’s questions have been answered, but I understood some of the events a bit differently: > [@](#): > > 1. Who were Loki and Puck working for/manipulated by? Seemed to me it was Lucifer, based on a comment he made to Delirium toward the end of the “Kindly Ones.” It’s far from certain, but that’s how I took it. > [@](#): > > 1. What did they seek to gain? Loki, freedom from his obligation to Dream; Puck, just enjoys spreading chaos. > [@](#): > > 1. Why did Loki kill Carla? (he said he hated being obligated to anyone.) Because she might have told someone who would come looking for Lyta or Daniel Hall (which turned out to be the Corinthian, not that they knew specifically, but they knew someone would try to find them) about the fake policemen who contacted Lyta, and thereby put those pursuers on their trail. (Unfortunately for that idea, Dream sent someone who could read a dead woman’s eyes.) > [@](#): > > 1. Who was he obligated to? Dream, for letting him escape his punishment with the poison-dripping snake. Sampiro: > [@](#): > > Do any of the other Endless have children? Destiny had Beyonce Knowles, Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/51 "2010-10-05T07:30:41Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Sampiro: > [@](#): > > Do any of the other Endless have children? Destiny had Beyonce Knowles, Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams. [/QUOTE] Heh heh… I see whatcha did theah… ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/52 "2010-10-05T11:33:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And of course, who would you cast as The Endless (or any other characters) in a movie? Money and their status as living or dead is no matter. I’d love to see Keanu Reeves as Dream, just to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would follow. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/53 "2010-10-05T12:05:22Z")
Ooh- can I play? **Death** -Ellen Page **Dream** -Russell Brand **Desire** -Clay Aiken **Destiny** -Steve Buscemi **Despair** -Roseanne **Destruction** -Brian Blessed **Delirium** -Lindsay Lohan No, no seriously, I kid, I kid. **Death** -Christina Ricci -channelling Wednesday Adams **Dream** -Guy Pearce **Desire** -Tilda Swinton, _Orlando_ era, or Cate Blanchett **Destiny** - Christopher Lee- it’s gotta be all about the voice from the hood **Despair** -I think Kathy Bates is just right too. **Destruction** -I really can’t think of anyone with the physicality and the acting chops, because he needs to be BIG and muscled. **Delerium** -Chloe Moretz in 5 years time. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/54 "2010-10-05T13:40:04Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Who were Loki and Puck working for/manipulated by? > > Seemed to me it was Lucifer, based on a comment he made to Delirium toward the end of the “Kindly Ones.” It’s far from certain, but that’s how I took it. The problem with this theory is that Loki and Puck have absolutely no dealings with Lucifer, at all. For this to be the case, we would have to be expected to read facts in from completely outside the text. That would not only be uncharacteristic of Gaiman’s writing, but would not fit the structure of The Sandman, either. It’s a story about stories, told through stories. It breaks storytelling conventions to have to make such a wild leap of intuition without it being mentioned in the story. On the other hand, both Loki and Puck had dealings with Morpheus. He explicitly mentions he’s got a task for Loki… and we later see Loki, doing something intimately connected to Dream’s story. And then Death later accuses Morpheus of setting the whole thing up… and Loki’s actions turn out to have been pivotal in setting the whole thing up. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/55 "2010-10-05T14:50:58Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **Death** -Christina Ricci -channelling Wednesday Adams Uf. No. I like Ricci well enough, but she’s not right for Death - ESPECIALLY not in Wednesday mode. Death’s a [Perky Goth](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PerkyGoth) (exemplifying it to the point of being the illustration for the page), Wednesday’s a [Creepy Child](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreepyChild). Totally different, and incompatible, types. Winona Ryder would be a better choice from the list of ‘actresses who played Gothy characters 20 years ago’ list. Added bonus, she better resembles most artist’s take on Death. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/56 "2010-10-05T16:25:37Z")
Lightray: > [@](#): > > The problem with this theory is that Loki and Puck have absolutely no dealings with Lucifer, at all. For this to be the case, we would have to be expected to read facts in from completely outside the text…It breaks storytelling conventions to have to make such a wild leap of intuition without it being mentioned in the story. So? When before “The Kindly Ones” did Loki and Puck have anything to do with one another? I am not reading from outside the text, I am reading Lucifer saying as follows from Sandman # 68: “I swore to destroy him. Your (Delirium’s) brother…He embarrassed me…he said something he thought was clever…” (i.e., “Hope” at the end of Sandman # 4) Sounded to me like Lucifer was hinting that the current goings-on are fulfillment of that oath. > [@](#): > > And then Death later accuses Morpheus of setting the whole thing up… And Morpheus denies it. It’s true he admits that his heart is no longer in the job of being Dream, but that’s not an admission that he has a split personality that somehow made Loki and Puck kidnap Daniel and get the Furies sent at him, he’s just saying that that’s why he didn’t fight harder to stay alive, specifically why he wasn’t more firm about staying in the Dreaming when Nuala summoned him. He got careless because he no longer had his heart in the job of being Dream. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/57 "2010-10-05T16:38:24Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > So? When before “The Kindly Ones” did Loki and Puck have anything to do with one another? > > I am not reading from outside the text, I am reading Lucifer saying as follows from Sandman # 68: “I swore to destroy him. Your (Delirium’s) brother…He embarrassed me…he said something he thought was clever…” (i.e., “Hope” at the end of Sandman # 4) > > Sounded to me like Lucifer was hinting that the current goings-on are fulfillment of that oath. Loki and Puck each had dealings with Morpheus. Neither had any dealings with Lucifer. Lucifer swore to destroy Dream. Delight also wanted to destroy Dream. Possibly, each of them contributed to what happened. Neither of them ever had anything to do with either Loki or Puck that we are shown. To assume that Lucifer had arranged Loki’s and Puck’s actions regarding Daniel is, therefore, reading outside the text. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/58 "2010-10-05T17:15:35Z")
Lightray: > [@](#): > > Loki and Puck each had dealings with Morpheus. Neither had any dealings with Lucifer. But he had dealings with Morpheus as well. So he’s as connected to the two as they were to one another. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/59 "2010-10-05T17:42:20Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > But he had dealings with Morpheus as well. So he’s as connected to the two as they were to one another. Did you ever see Lucifer in a scene with Loki or Puck? Even any mention of such? We see Morpheus with Puck – he’s one of the faeries invited to see A Midsummer Night’s Dream. And is one of the ones featured in the play. We see Morpheus with Loki – he’s let go by Morpheus and explicitly owes Dream for doing so. We later see Loki and Puck, _working together_, on something related to Dream. We never see Lucifer with Loki. We never see Lucifer with Puck. Hell, we never see that Lucifer even knows about Daniel in the first place, to have sent the two characters he had absolutely nothing to do with off after. Morpheus is the character in common with Loki and Puck, and Morpheus is the one who knows about Daniel in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502/60 "2010-10-05T17:58:59Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > And of course, who would you cast as The Endless (or any other characters) in a movie? Money and their status as living or dead is no matter. > > I’d love to see Keanu Reeves as Dream, just to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would follow. Reeves’ flat affect would actually work pretty well as Dream. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unanswered-questions-from-sandman/555502.md?page=4)