My son turned an assisted triple play in T-ball. He was playing short with runners on first and second. The batter hit a line drive to him and both runners left their bases [1]. He tagged the runner leaving second base and then tagged the runner coming from first. He and I were the only people who understood what had happened. I gave up trying to explain it to the parents so we called the batter out and let the runners stay on second and third.
[1] It was a line drive, so the infield-fly rule wouldn’t have applied if we used it in T-ball, which we didn’t.
My memory is hazy, but I think I once saw a play where the batter (George Scott?) hit an inside-the-park homer but the runner who was on base ahead of him was thrown out at the plate. Don’t remember the details.
The triple play rule (9.11) says that three outs must be recorded on a single play before “the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts”. Also, “The official scorer shall credit a double play or triple play also if an appeal play after the ball is in possession of the pitcher results in an additional putout.” It stands to reason that if a successful appeal after the play counts that an appeal during the play should also count. Your interpretation of the rule would negate at least 12 of the 15 unassisted triple plays which have occurred in MLB history.
I also disagree that you have to make an explicit appeal to put out a runner who fails to tag up. That play happens all the time and I’ve never heard of an instance where the runner was ruled safe because the fielder didn’t somehow indicate that he was appealing the play (which usually happens too quickly for the fielder to make the request or the umpire to acknowledge it).
Lastly, how would an umpire know whether a fielder purposefully or inadvertently stepped on second base in the scenario we’re discussing? The assumption should be that the fielder did it purposefully since it’s to his advantage to do so.
I agree that a correct appeal for an out counts as part of a triple play. No argument about that.
My contention is that an appeal must obviously be an appeal. But it doesn’t necessarily require that fielder to state so to the umpire. If the fielder catches the ball and throws to a base the runner left that makes it obvious. If he runs purposefully to a base and steps on it, that can be obvious.
However, as Gus_Gusterson described the T-ball play, the fielder didn’t know he would be putting a runner out by stepping on the base so it’s not an appeal. This is what I was instructed when learning to umpire in any case.
Note that this is different from a force play. A force play is an out whether or not the fileder knows it. This happened once in a game I was umping. Runners on 1st and second. Grounder to short. Shortstop throws to the third baseman who’s not on the base. Runner from second stops and retreats. Third baseman throw to the second baseman (also not on his base). Runner runs towards third. Second baseman throws to pitcher covering third who is straddling the bag. Runner starts back towards second. Pitcher steps on 3rd as he gets ready to throw back to second. I signal out and pint at the runner between 2nd and 3rd.
Immediate chaos. The manager argues the runner was not out of the baseline because there was no tag attempt. I agreed, but said he’d been forced at third. After a moment things settled down.
I recall seeing something somewhat similar in a MLB game. WIsh I could find a video.
So you’re saying the runner would be out whether or not the fielder’s intention was to appeal? What practical distinction is there then between the fielder being aware or not aware?
No. I’m saying on an appeal, it must be obvious to the umpire that the fielder is appealing. On a force out, intent is not required. Despite doubling a player off a base looks like a force out because you don’t need to tag the runner, it is not a force.
You initially said it’s not a triple play and didn’t mention force outs at all. Neither did Gus_Gusterson. You might be right but it doesn’t seem to be germane.
Correct Gus_Gusterson didn’t mention force outs and I only mentioned them in contrast to an appeal play. In a force out it needn’t be obvious you are trying for an out. in an appeal play it must at least according to my umpire training.
I was saying what he saw should not have been a triple play as I understand the rules.
After further research I now understand your point about an inadvertent appeal not being an out. I don’t think we can judge whether the appeal was inadvertent or not in Gus_Gusterson’s case but I do see that it wouldn’t be a triple play if the appeal at second was ruled to be inadvertent.
AGAIN, these are 5 year old children. Any appeal is coming from the coach and I would expect that the umps aren’t being rules-lawyers. He stepped on the bag, it’s an out. Any level above that, maybe they play it by MLB rules. Depends on the level and the expected knowledge level of the kids involved. When you’re that age, baseball is FUN, not a damn job. That only happens at 8-9 years old (sad, but true).
The coaches served as umpires in our T-ball league and we were instructed to play by Little League rules, which are very close to MLB rules. The main differences are no leads, no steals, and no infield-fly rule. Most of us were flexible. For example, some of the kids didn’t understand what it meant to be out. We would let them stay on base. But there were some real sticklers. The first batter in the first T-ball game I coached struck out (understandable, since she had never held a bat before). She swung at the ball on the tee three times and missed three times. The opposing coach insisted that she stop trying and go back to the dugout.
My son understood the game and the rules, and he wasn’t alone. Those kids, the ones who would continue playing baseball for years, deserved to have us follow the rules as much as possible. The other kids can pick daisies and run the bases backward. But when the kids who knew what they were doing made a putout or a smart play, I felt that they deserved to be acknowledged and rewarded. That required following the rules. The flipside is that when they made a mistake it would be insulting to reward them anyway by not following the rules.
Yes, I had a double standard. If you were there only because mommy or daddy signed you up, you got to do whatever you wanted. I knew that I would never see you on a ballfield again. But if you were there because you wanted to play baseball, you got to play as close to real baseball as I could make it.
I’d rather see an “assisted” triple play than an unassisted one. The speed and coordination needed for a fielder to, say, collect a ground ball, step on the base and then throw to another player who steps on a base and throws to another player who steps on a base would be amazing to witness.
