# UNC 0, Ignorance 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991 "2002-07-20T18:20:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/1 "2002-07-20T18:20:51Z")
[From this morning’s paper](http://newsobserver.com/news/triangle/story/1568694p-1597712c.html) > [@](#): > > Freshmen who are offended by reading a book about Islam won’t be forced to do so, UNC-Chapel Hill said this week, but they will be required to write a one-page paper stating their religious objections to the book … Critics say the new option makes the situation worse by requiring objectors to defend their religious beliefs in class. Well, gosh, can’t have _that_. Heaven forbid that the innocent young things should have to think about their beliefs long enough to write an entire page about them. Of course, it’s better than having to read and discuss a whole _book_ about Islam, which is clearly an Evil Liberal Plot … because, um … everybody needs to be protected from learning anything about any other religions. Especially at a university; why, there are impressionable 18-year-olds at a university, who need to be shielded from anything that might bruise the delicate blossom of their ignorance! As it happens, I’m tutoring for a summer program at UNC and working with a group of these incoming freshmen, most of them bright-but-sheltered kids from small towns throughout the state. A few weeks ago, they made the shocking discovery that there were gay people on campus. Pandemonium ensued. (“I hope _I_ don’t get a gay roommate, because I’ll never be able to go to sleep before he does.” “Ew! Why would anybody want to be gay?” etc.) The primary instructor for the class, showing far more restraint than I would have been able to summon, let them talk for a while and gently pointed out that they would have to get along with all sorts of people when school started in the fall, including gay people, Buddhists, _and Muslims_. At this point, one young man jumped out of his chair and shouted “No, I WON’T!” Ironically, these are all minority students, and several of them had written papers advocating greater diversity in the university – meaning, I guess, more people exactly like them. As I have learned in my two years of teaching freshman English, the ones who have _never_ been a minority of any sort are worse. How, exactly, does allowing these students to choose not to learn about other perspectives help them? What really gets to me is the administration’s spinelessness; they are, apparently, afraid of being sued. IANAL, but this sounds like an empty threat; surely, the university has a right to require students to read any book it deems part of their education. Could I have sued my undergraduate college for requiring me to take a course on Chaucer, Shakespeare, or Milton, on the grounds that I found the writings of dead Christian Englishmen offensive? The administrators’ decision to back down opens the door to all sorts of silliness, while I find it hard to believe they would lose in a court of law if they decided to stand firm. They would, however, lose business, and that’s the bottom line. Well, college is a consumer’s market these days, and I guess the students’ desire to be comfortable trumps their right to be educated. It’s a shame about all those religious minority students, though, who have to adapt to a Christian-dominated and often hostile social environment from day one, while conservative Christian students evidently don’t have to make any concessions at all, even to the extent of _learning_ about other religions. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/2 "2002-07-20T18:26:31Z")
You can thank Bill “Yes, I Really Am An Asshole Off-Camera Too!!!” O’Reilly for this. las week on his show he had a professor from UNC and they were “discussing” the book. Rather, the professor was trying to have a reasonably sane discussion and O’Reilly was badly imitating John McLaughlin. Yeeeeeeesssssssssssshhhhhhhh. Oh well, basketball season is only 4 months away. Go Tar Heels!!! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/3 "2002-07-20T18:28:02Z")
I wonder what happens when they go out into the “Real World”, to work, to live, to exist-and encounter all sorts of situations and different people? Good lord. Still don’t lump all Christian colleges into this. I went to a small private Catholic liberal arts college-which made me even MORE of a liberal than I was before-just by what I’ve learned.\* We have a huge foreign exchange program as well. My case would have been-“Hey, no one here is forcing you to go to school here. Or take this class. These are the requirements. Like it or lump it.” :rolleyes: \*I don’t mean I was “brainwashed by socialist professors”. More like, in my studies, I encountered subjects and such that motivated me to do more research and study on my own. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/4 "2002-07-20T18:38:39Z")
Fretful: 1. Your first paragraph is a master of prose. 2. Now you know why I abandoned Dixie (the region, not some girl by that name) and moved West. Guin: 1. Those folks tell others not of their faith that we’re devil worshippers. 2. Current Republican “leadership” enforces this stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/5 "2002-07-20T18:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Still don’t lump all Christian colleges into this. I went to a small private Catholic liberal arts college-which made me even MORE of a liberal than I was before-just by what I’ve learned. Don’t worry, this isn’t a Christian college at all, it’s a public university that happens to have a vocal and conservative Christian majority. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/6 "2002-07-20T18:41:53Z")
And thank you, Monty! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/7 "2002-07-20T19:24:41Z")
I’m just glad I’m going to a diverse college next year…I can’t see anything like that happening. I don’t know what I’d do if I were at a school that was just that…mean spirited. Let’s hope you can try to infiltrate some intelligence into the group of freshmen with whom you’re working. Or at least a semblance of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/8 "2002-07-20T19:34:23Z")
Go **Fretful**!! Go get 'em! Stamp out that ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/9 "2002-07-20T19:39:56Z")
I think this is the fundamental point here: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **My case would have been-"Hey, no one here is forcing you to go to school here. Or take this class. These are the requirements. Like it or lump it."** I agree with **Guin**. Maybe college has changed a lot since those long-ago days of Camelot in the 1990’s, but I can’t recall students ever being able to direct the course material in classes at KU. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/10 "2002-07-20T20:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\* > It’s a shame about all those religious minority students, though, who have to adapt to a Christian-dominated and often hostile social environment from day one, while conservative Christian students evidently don’t have to make any concessions at all, even to the extent of _learning_ about other religions. Sigh. \*\* Yes, those students should visit Iran or Saudi Arabia to see what _real_ religious freedom is like. Conservative Christians in the U.S. are no more ignorant/close minded/predjudiced/uninformed than their conservative counterparts in other religions all over the world. It’s not new, or unique, or limited to Christianity. There is also an extensive body of law in the United States dedicated to the proposition that students cannot be required to learn or participate in “religious” activities using public funds or facilities. (That’s not all bad; there’s some really overzealous people out there.) UNC is a public school. If the students find reading a book about Islam offensive, how is that any different from a teacher requiring them to read the Bible every day? Things like that have already been shot down in court. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/11 "2002-07-20T20:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t worry, this isn’t a Christian college at all, it’s a public university that happens to have a vocal and conservative Christian majority. Wow, and I almost applied there. My friends said it was more progressive than you’d think. I guess when us Northerners go on tours the Falwell-types are forced into hiding. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/12 "2002-07-20T21:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _If the students find reading a book about Islam offensive, how is that any different from a teacher requiring them to read the Bible every day?_\* I find the religious ideals of the Puritans offensive. Does this mean that I should be exempt from reading required materials on early American history? I realize that Conservative Christians are no more (and often less) ignorant than any other reactionary religious majority in any other country. But they happen to be the dominant group of ignorant jackasses in this country. Hence, we bitch about them. ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/13 "2002-07-20T23:18:21Z")
> [@](#): > > UNC-CH has required all incoming freshmen to read the book about Islam and participate in discussion groups Aug. 19 during the first week of the semester. [Emphasis added] While I’m all for people breaking free of their ignorance, I’m not comfortable with a college attempting to ram enlightenment down its students’ throats. Opening a discussion on Islam at this college is a very good idea, but it’s wrong to _force_ students to participate. I’m also unconvinced that it’s a First Amendment issue. It would be equally wrong to force all freshmen to learn about auto repair in the first week of classes. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/14 "2002-07-20T23:32:48Z")
:rolleyes: Good ol’ Chapel Hill. First your basketball team loses its spine, now your professors. Way to represent the UNC system. SpazCat, an ECU graduate and Duke fan ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/15 "2002-07-21T00:24:54Z")
**Karmandi** I think “required” should be interpreted here as “required for this particular course”. I doubt they’re holding people at gunpoint. I agree 100% with the OP. A university is an institution that’s supposed to encourage the growth of knowledge, and the broadening of horizons. This goes directly against that. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/16 "2002-07-21T00:42:10Z")
It’s not “required for this particular course,” it’s “required for all incoming freshmen.” I spent two weeks at UNC earlier this summer, and the book on Islam is part of some kind of Freshman Book Discussion thing. Students have to read it over the summer and then discuss it in a class that all Freshmen are required to take. It’s like those citywide book clubs that were quite the thing earlier this year. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/17 "2002-07-21T00:58:00Z")
Hmmm, weird curriculum. But then again, aren’t there _other_ books on this required list too? Why would students be excused from this one book because it is about Islam? Because it is “shocking”, aparently. These students don’t have to go to this University, and they could probably have looked up the requirements and curriculum beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/18 "2002-07-21T01:26:31Z")
The school’s probably hoping to decrease incidents of harassment on campus by forcing the yahoos to learn something about the people that they ‘hate’ (and being a graduate of both high school and college in North Carolina, I feel free to use the term ‘yahoo’ with abandon.) > [@](#): > > **SpazCat** , an ECU graduate and Duke fan Same here - except for the Duke part. When I was at ECU in the 80’s there was a small, but visible, group of Muslims on campus. Wonder if that has changed (I’m hoping not)… ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/19 "2002-07-21T01:30:04Z")
Y’all are just lucky that **Jesse Helms** isn’t still the commentator on Raleigh radio/tv these days. I heard enough crap from him in the 60’s to last a lifetime. After reading the **News and Observer** story, I think that UNC is wrong here. They thought that they were a non-state school doing something which would be progressive. While it would have been progressive, I personally don’t think that it was a good idea to apply it in a _university-wide_ manner. If you’re a private school, go for it. State school, no way. And, to put my stance into perspective, I would favor that my kid or I would have to do this no matter where they went. It ain’t gonna hurt and might teach me/them something. I actually attended UNC for a semester in 1966. But the admin. screwed up here. (I think things starting going wrong when Dean Smith retired 😛 ) Go Heels. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/20 "2002-07-21T01:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lawoot \* > \*\* When I was at ECU in the 80’s there was a small, but visible, group of Muslims on campus. Wonder if that has changed (I’m hoping not)… \*\* Yep, still there. There were always women with head scarves around and during Ramadan the men would wear little hats. It’s surprisingly enlightened for a school in ArmPitt County. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991.md?page=2)