# UNC 0, Ignorance 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991 "2002-07-20T18:20:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/21 "2002-07-21T02:16:17Z")
I had learned about Islam in high school. 10th grade World History, we did a section on the Middle East, and one part included studying the origins of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It was pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Tradnor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cab0a1/32.png) [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/22 "2002-07-21T02:35:11Z")
The UNC website has a page about their [Summer Reading Program](http://www.unc.edu/srp/). There is only one book per year, which **all** new undergraduate students are required to read. Past selections are:[ul][li]_The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down_, Anne Fadiman[/li][li]_Confederates in the Attic_, Tony Horwitz[/li][li]_There Are No Children Here_, Alex Kotlowitz[/ul]The stated goals of this program are:[/li][QUOTE] …to stimulate discussion and critical thinking around a current topic, to introduce you to academic life at Carolina, to enhance a sense of community between students, faculty and staff, and to provide a common experience for incoming students. [/QUOTE] Frankly I don’t see what the big deal is. If you want a Christian education, go to a Christian school. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/23 "2002-07-21T03:37:05Z")
I’m confused. Exactly how does this good idea become a bad one when it’s implemented at a state-run university. There was no inodoctrination, no state support of the religion; merely an attempt to broaden the minds of the incoming class. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/24 "2002-07-21T04:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > how does this good idea become a bad one [?] > . . . > merely an attempt to broaden the minds I think you’ve answered your question. ---
**Author:** ![NightRabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NightRabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NightRabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/25 "2002-07-21T04:17:59Z")
I don’t understand how even a state U, by placing a religious book on its required-freshman reading list, constitutes the use of government funds to “sponser” religion. IMHO, there’s a huge difference between religious worship and the scholarly study of that particular religion and associated culture. My college has theology classes on everything from the Bible to the Mahabharata- last time I checked, none of these classes included weekly prayer sessions :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/26 "2002-07-21T06:15:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > **Well, college is a consumer’s market these days** This sentence makes my stomach _churn_. _barf_ ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/27 "2002-07-21T07:13:53Z")
Oh give me a fucking BREAK will ya’? The more you READ the more you LEARN, both what you agree with and what you fucking DON’T. I read fundie literature, and at least understand what I’m arguing against. I read leftie politics, and at least understand the fuckwits I need to apologise for. Do not be OFFENDED by anything you read…just be enraged!! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/28 "2002-07-21T10:21:02Z")
Puh-leeze, WTF is so threatening about reading a book? Ones goes to a university in order to be exposed to ideas and experiences that one has never before encountered. Given the new prominence of Islam on the world stage and the rising number of Muslims in America, reading a book that introduces readers to a book that 1/4 of the world considers holy scripture might be a good idea. But no, not in the home of Jesse Helms–“mah pastor done tol’ me I wasn’t s’posed to read nuthin that might make me think!” ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/29 "2002-07-21T12:42:38Z")
Yeah, but in the minds of these people, it’s not about the education. It’s about the damn piece of paper they’re allegedly “entitled” to when they “graduate”. Education is for them pointy-headed intellectuals, dontcha know? Robin ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/30 "2002-07-21T12:55:29Z")
Hey, that’s “pointy-head **lib’ral** intellectuals!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/31 "2002-07-21T13:16:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kamandi \* > \*\* > [Emphasis added] > While I’m all for people breaking free of their ignorance, I’m not comfortable with a college attempting to ram enlightenment down its students’ throats. Opening a discussion on Islam at this college is a very good idea, but it’s wrong to _force_ students to participate. > > I’m also unconvinced that it’s a First Amendment issue. It would be equally wrong to force all freshmen to learn about auto repair in the first week of classes. \*\* If your First Amendment is what I think it is (freedom of religion, separation between state and church) This case is not protected by it. In fact after a brief search (God bless internet): > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. You notice it also protect freedom of speech. unless I am wrong (our constitutions are very similar) Freedom of speech also covers the freedom to teach and learn. Then If you don’t want to become a muslim fine but if your college request you to learn about it you have to. I say it again, you don’t have expiriencies with dictatorships. You should be carefull if you grow accustomed to this kind of moronic behaviour, you will. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/32 "2002-07-21T13:21:31Z")
It’s amazing to me how people fail to grasp that you can **disagree with what a book says**. Indeed, you can slam it much more effectively. It’s like people who haven’t grasped the concept of fiction. If you will be automatically convinced by anything you read, what you believe now isn’t worth much. I appreciate that some books may be so offensive you can’t bear to read them, but I don’t think that’s an issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/33 "2002-07-21T14:28:59Z")
What kind of a book is it? I mean, it could be pro islam, anti islam or a book that studies the text of the kuran. Is it true the kuran says something about not the deaths but the killing of all that don’t follow islam? I know there was something to that affect. Anyone know the exact words? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/34 "2002-07-21T14:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > There is also an extensive body of law in the United States dedicated to the proposition that students cannot be required to learn or participate in “religious” activities using public funds or facilities. (That’s not all bad; there’s some really overzealous people out there.) > UNC is a public school. If the students find reading a book about Islam offensive, how is that any different from a teacher requiring them to read the Bible every day? Things like that have already been shot down in court. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. It’s the difference between _learning about_ a religion and _practicing_ it. (Or being unwillingly exposed to its practice.) **Tradnor** has linked to UNC’s Summer Reading Program and quoted its motivations: > [@](#): > > …to stimulate discussion and critical thinking around a current topic, to introduce you to academic life at Carolina, to enhance a sense of community between students, faculty and staff, and to provide a common experience for incoming students. What could be a more important current topic for Americans than Islam? I think UNC is doing its incoming freshmen one hell of a favor by insisting that they learn something about it, and engage in a semi-intelligent discussion about it with their teachers and peers. Or the students could just say, “My pastor told me Islam is of the devil, and that’s all I need to know about it.” In which case why come to the university? Why not stay home and let your pastor teach you about the world? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine_ > Well, college is a consumer’s market these days Yeah, it makes me queasy too. In the mid to late '90s, the ‘customer’ vocabulary was starting to creep in at the TN community college where my wife was teaching. It wasn’t why we got out of teaching, but it was one of several things that helped make the break easier. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/35 "2002-07-21T15:06:18Z")
When I entered college, I was required to read a book on racial diversity. I disagreed with the author’s definition of racism, her approach towards affirmative action, and her opinions on white privilige, and I said as much when the book was discussed. In fact, the most vocal people at the discussion dissented from the book to one dgree or another. (slight tangent: there was a single black person in the group who remained silent, despite the attempts by the group leader, a professor, to make her talk. It must have been profoundly uncomfortable for her to be inadvertantly made the center of attention on her first week as a freshman in an overwhelmingly white school) **Double Darren** : Good question, from the title I’d guess a rather straightforward and scholarly book on Koranic interpretation and theology. Of couse, people at UNC will never know, will they. And no, the Koran does not teach Muslims to kill non-Muslims, it in fanct demands tolerance for “peoples of the book” (Jews and Christians, and a few other IIRC) at the very least. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised the school didn’t use **Islam: the Straight Path** by Espsoito. Excellent work on the religion’s foundations, history, differing interpretations and splinter groups, and recent militant movements. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/36 "2002-07-21T15:08:04Z")
Hmm… I seem to have left out my point. Anyway, I have no problem with the book being assigned (and agree that a work on Islam is topical and important), but students should not only be allowed, but encouraged to come forward and dissent from it, or defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/37 "2002-07-21T15:47:56Z")
Menocchio, I’d like to agree with you but I looked it up and this is what I found on the net. I’m not a worrywort about islam but I think this is a very interesting topic considering the times. What I found is what some students might take to be offensive if they see the book on islam as avoiding the tough issues. **"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."Sura 9:5** -if this is taken out of context then what historical event is it refering to? **Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. Sura 9:73** **"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers."** \*\*Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. Sura 9:29 \*\* \*\*Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors. Kill them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; Sura 2:190 \*\* -this is interesting. It apparently says not to attack first, which is good I’d say, but it’s clear who the enemy is and that they should be killed. [http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran6.htm](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran6.htm) [http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran5.html](http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran5.html) -this is from another site about the same thing. [http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran5.htm](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran5.htm) ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/38 "2002-07-21T15:58:38Z")
[http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran6.htm](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran6.htm) [http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran5.htm](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dbates/koran5.htm) Explore this link a little further, and you will find this phrase; > [@](#): > > **Jesus Christ is the only way out of all the confusion that surrounds us. He alone can give real meaning and purpose to life, and is available just through a prayer of faith.** Is this very reliable site as far as the _scholarly_ study of islam is concerned? Nopers, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/39 "2002-07-21T16:15:48Z")
**kung fu** , It isn’t supposed to be a trip inside the mind of a theologian. It only matters that the koran says what it says. You can’t simply discredit or deny by saying a website is not “reliable” unless the verses listed are made up. Back to the topic, if the koran does teach these things then couldn’t that be offensive to someone? ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/40 "2002-07-21T16:19:46Z")
oh, **kung fu** you’ve mistaken my point, the website I quote from is only to list text from the koran, not to battle christianity vs islam. I don’t have a koran on me so this was a suitable source. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991.md?page=3)