# UNC 0, Ignorance 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991 "2002-07-20T18:20:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/81 "2002-07-22T01:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > I just completely freaked out and couldn’t read anymore of this thread. Forgive me if someone else has already gone over this, but… > > You have got to be fucking kidding me. You think this happened because this was a SOUTHERN school? You think you escaped such parochialism by moving away? Or to California? Nope; however, it’s nowhere near as prevalent as it is back in the sticks down South where I got stuck. > [@](#): > > California, the font of tolerance for difference? You say that like it’s a bad thing. > [@](#): > > I’ve been all over and I’m here to tell you that you can go anywhere in the fifty states and throw a rock and have a damn good chance of hitting a fucking moronic bigoted narrow-minded asshole. They don’t all hang out below the Mason Dixon line. No kidding. But in certain areas of the country, your chances of hitting some other kind of individual is greatly decreased. > [@](#): > > You can go West. You can go North. It doesn’t matter. And anyone who believes that the SOUTH holds the monopoly on small-mindedness is kidding themselves. Quite reading crap into what I wrote, kindly. I did not, repeat DID NOT, say that the South held a monopoly on it. > [@](#): > > And the real sad thing is that it’s not just wet-behind-the-ears small town kids who have these deficiencies. No kidding; but, and here’s the thing, the South seems to be taking a perverse pride in glorifying bigotry. {Need I mention the rebel flag?} ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/82 "2002-07-22T01:22:36Z")
From [amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883991269/qid=1027300027/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4458036-2089453): > [@](#): > > Approaching the Qu’rn is a translation of the early suras-the short, hymnic chapters at the end of the book. A major event in religious publishing, this book captures the complexity, power and poetry of the early suras and the majesty and intimacy of the distinctive Qu’rnic voice. > > These early revelations to Muhammad involve little of the political and legal detail found in the suras of his later career. Here they speak directly to every human being, regardless of religious confession or cultural background. Approaching the Qu’rn is also designed to be as accessible as possible, to offer the full lyric and literary experience to readers: Opposite each sura is a short commentary that explores some of the subtleties and context of the Qu’rnic passages; an annotated glossary explains key Qu’rnic concepts and Arabic terms with English translations; there is even a compact disc of recordings by renowned Qu’rnic reciters chanting the early suras. So, apparently, this is more analogous to the Bible than it is a C.S. Lewis commentary. More specifically, this sounds analogous to a book called _The Unvarnished New Testament_, which I read in an honors English class when I was a sophomore in college. It was anything but prosetylizing; I couldn’t even tell you what the professor’s beliefs were. I, an agnostic at best, and my college roommate, a strong, evolution-denying Christian, both made it through the class with our beliefs intact. I like what UNC was trying to do, and I wish they could have done it, but there was no way it was going to happen. I wish they hadn’t caved. Oh well, that much sweeter when Kentucky spanks them like whiny little bitches on the basketball court. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/83 "2002-07-22T01:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Double Darren \* > Still, no one has said anything explaining the context of : > > **When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful. Sura 9:5** Context: The pagans referred to are those that have broken covenants with Muslims and made war against them or allied with their enemies. May be modified by the following passages: _(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous” (Holy Qur’an 9:4)_ and… _“If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge” (Holy Qur’an 9:6)._ > [@](#): > > Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. > Sura 9:73 This deals specifically with apostates to Islam ( “hypocrite” in the Qur’an usually = “apostate” ). > [@](#): > > “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers.” [http://www.radwan.cwc.net/friends.html](http://www.radwan.cwc.net/friends.html) > [@](#): > > Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. Sura 9:29 Same context as 9:5 above. To quote: \*It has been shown in the previous section of this article that these verses and other verses of similar meaning specifically pertain to the polytheists, the Jews and the Christians of the Prophet’s times. They had knowingly denied the truth and were as a result given this punishment. Today, in the absence of the Prophet (sws), it cannot be known whether people are knowingly denying it; therefore, no action can be taken against them. Muslims must continue to develop friendly relations with them and cordially invite them to Islam without threatening their existence or authority. \* > [@](#): > > Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors. > Kill them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; Sura2:190 You’ve actually combined two suras above. Some more translations for you: \*002.190 **YUSUFALI** : Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. **PICKTHAL** : Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. **SHAKIR** : And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. 002:191 **YUSUFALI** : And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. **PICKTHAL** : And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. **SHAKIR** : And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. \* “idolatry” doesn’t seem a very popular translation in terms of 2:191. “Persecution” or “oppression” seem preferred. I’ve salso seen yet more translations that also agree with that. context: Don’t fight wars of aggression and/or be moderate in war, defend yourself if oppressed or attacked. Seems straightforward enough and not terribly unreasonable. “Unbelievers” is a bit of an oxymoron in this context as the Qur’an commanded and assumes ( incorrectly of course, as it turned out ) that Muslims would not take up arms against Muslims. > [@](#): > > Koran context please. Those are some possible contexts for you. I am sure there are others and I am not a Qur’anic scholar. If you want me to debate the original Arabic you’re talking to the wrong guy. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/84 "2002-07-22T01:39:24Z")
Well, damn you anyway **Kimstu** - Stealing my thunder :D. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/85 "2002-07-22T01:51:37Z")
RtFirefly, ODU? …I didn’t go to Old Dominion. The OP presupposes that an “education” (a good one) is anything handed to freshman students. The author gives no description of the book, only that it is a book about islam. Well, you and others may overlook the obvious and naively assume that all books are the same. I question what type of book it is and describe (or try to describe) that the book may not include the um, most interesting parts of the koran. If the students had word of this, then they are correct on this fact alone, not to mention that if a theological christian book was forced on the students there would be no question that it would be shot down. That you can’t deny. Cool, stuff Kimstu, and this is way along the lines of what I was looking for. But basically I get that it’s okay to kill if attacked; **"The ones I’ve seen say “You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you.”**. Upon reading some of this site, I’m not sure the the US isn’t the ‘aggressor’ and worthy of being fought against, considering OBL’s definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/86 "2002-07-22T02:09:57Z")
**DD:** _But basically I get that it’s okay to kill if attacked […] Upon reading some of this site, I’m not sure the the US isn’t the ‘aggressor’ and worthy of being fought against, considering OBL’s definitions._ And just why the bloody hell should we advocate the reading of the Qur’an in the light of the “definitions” of OBL or any other murderous nutball Muslim terrorist, any more than we should advocate the reading of the Bible in light of the “definition” of murderous nutball Christian terrorists such as the Army of God? If a religious text is to be judged on the basis of how murderous nutballs interpret it and the damage they do in its name, we should have burned every last copy of the Bible centuries ago. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/87 "2002-07-22T02:13:32Z")
Sorry, Monty. Although it certainly seems that way, my rant wasn’t directed solely at you. I’ve heard things in a similar vein from others, so my rant extended beyond what you said (as in, I realize that you didn’t claim the South had a monopoly on bigotry). I apologize for my vitriolic tone. I meant the “font of tolerance” to be sarcastic. I don’t think tolerance is a bad thing (on the contrary). It’s just that it’s apparent that California, like the rest of us, has its own problems with racism, xenophobia, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/88 "2002-07-22T02:45:06Z")
Cranky, No problem. FWIW, one of the problems is that a huge group of people complain that we California state-tax payers voted against paying for education for illegal aliens because we’re xenophobic AND racist. 'Tain’t true. I, for one, voted against paying for that because it’s BS that our state is forced to provide a free education to illegals. I’m sure some moronic bigots who happen to reside in the Golden State decided to vote against because, well, they’re moronic bigots and they thought that’s the thing to do to “preserve the race” or some such nonsense. But I doubt that’s the majority of those who voted to withold taxpayer provided education to someone who’s intentionally breaking the law. Why does the state have to pay for the failure of the feds? MPSIMS: Last time I was at the Admissions and Records office of my junior college (in California), there was a young lady who wasn’t too happy that she didn’t qualify for the freebie in-state tuition for illegals–seems she’d only attended a California high school for two years. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/89 "2002-07-22T02:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > If the students had word of this, then they are correct on this fact alone, not to mention that if a theological christian book was forced on the students there would be no question that it would be shot down. That you can’t deny. Well, since I have actually read the testimony of several posters to this thread regarding their experiences with Christian Scripture and with explanatory books on Christianity, I can deny it quite easily. It is one of the most common lies from the Religious Right that only non-Christian _books_ are included in school curricula. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/90 "2002-07-22T02:58:57Z")
Okay, I recently posted a thread in IMHO that died a lonely death. In it I asked what English translation of the Koran is considered the best. I’m assuming there is more than one. Since some of you here seem to know the Koran, maybe you can answer. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/91 "2002-07-22T03:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baker \* > \*\*Okay, I recently posted a thread in IMHO that died a lonely death. In it I asked what English translation of the Koran is considered the best. I’m assuming there is more than one. Since some of you here seem to know the Koran, maybe you can answer. \*\* I read the Yusuf Ali translation, but a large number of scholars will tell you that there is no English translation without significant flaws. I guess it’s time to learn Arabic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/92 "2002-07-22T03:39:02Z")
[Here](http://alhafeez.org/rashid/qtranslate.html) is a link that gives a brief breakdown of the various translations, but there are many other sites which will do the same (and many of them disagree with each other). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/93 "2002-07-22T04:15:59Z")
I liked the Mohammed Marmaduke Pickethall one as that’s the first one I got. And a fun one to read was the one that ordered the suras in the order they were received instead of in the traditional manner. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/94 "2002-07-22T04:20:57Z")
\*\*DMC, \*\* I made a thank-you reply a few minutes ago but apparently it didn’t take for some reason. So thanks for the link. \*\*Monty, \*\* which one was it that re-ordered the suras from the traditional order? On the link \*\*DMC \*\* provided it seemd that several did. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/95 "2002-07-22T06:34:43Z")
**Double Darren** said: > [@](#): > > I question what type of book it is and describe (or try to describe) that the book may not include the um, most interesting parts of the koran. 😕 Why don’t you go get a copy of it from the library or buy it and _read_ it. At the very least, look up the summary of it on [www.amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com). As far as Sell’s book containing or not containing the most interesting parts of the Qur’an, that is up to debate. What constitutes interesting for you may not be interesting to another. Looking at the introduction to Sells’ text, it would appear that he seeks to show readers what is interesting to Muslims and non-Muslims who live in Muslim societies about select parts of the Qur’an. Sells writes on pages 3-4 of Approaching the Qur’an: The Early Revelations (1999): > [@](#): > > “This volume is an attempt to approach the Qur’an in two senses. First, in the translations and commentary I have tried to bring across some sense of that particular combination of majesty and intimacy that makes the Qur’anic voice distinctive. Second, I have sought to allow the reader who is unfamiliar with the details of Islamic history to approach the Qur’an in a way that allows _an appreciation of its distinctive literary character._ The selections presented here are the short, hymnic chapters or Suras associated with the first revelations to Muhammad, most of which appear at the end of the written text and are commonly reached only by the most resolute reader. _These short Suras are the sections learned first by Muslims in their study of the Arabic Qur’an. They also comprise the verses most often memorized, quoted, and recited._ They contain some of the most powerful prophetic and revelatory passages in religious history. And they offer the vision of a meaningful and just life that anchors the religion of one-fifth of the world’s inhabitants.” **Emphasis mine** **Mods** , I apologize if I’ve quoted too much from the text. This is just one paragraph out of Sells’ book. If you feel it violates copyright laws or anything, just delete it. It appears that Sells wants to present to an audience unfamiliar with Arabic or the Qur’an the beauty of the spoken language and the poetry in a few of the early and best known Suras of the Qur’an. And this is quite a challenge, as Classical Arabic and modern Arabic words have several shades of meaning. Just reading that much from the introduction, I’ve learned a bit about the Qur’an that I didn’t know. If Sells is to be believed–and I imagine someone’s bullshit meter would’ve gone off by now if he’s just blatently lying–the Qur’an’s not just a religious text, but rather it is an oral art form that has influenced the very fabric of many Muslim cultures. If you dare to read the paragraph from Sells’ text that I’ve cited, can you tell me how much more you’ve learned about the Sells’ book and about the Qur’an than you did before you read it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/96 "2002-07-22T10:21:50Z")
Sorry, Baker; I just don’t remember which one it was. I don’t have it any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Darren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Double\_Darren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Darren)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/97 "2002-07-22T13:17:07Z")
**celestina** , well, I don’t get the book from the library because I don’t care to read the book. You may because you find it interesting. If the book was slanted towards islam should I expect to read in the summary something indicating it so? I’m not saying it is, but I can’t say it isn’t. \*\*tomndebb[\b] **"Well, since I have actually read the testimony of several posters to this thread regarding their experiences with Christian Scripture and with explanatory books on Christianity, I can deny it quite easily."** I must have missed the post that stated in fact that at UNC other such books, but christian books, were forced onto students. In fact, didn’t Juniper200 say it’s required for all freshmen students and not only for a particular non-required class, as would make more sense and less of a big to do? **"It is one of the most common lies from the Religious Right that only non-Christian books are included in school curricula."** You think UNC is a “right wing” dominated school? If I could I’d give you a tour, we’d start on Franklin St and end on Franklin St, for the food…of course. **Kimstu** **"And just why the bloody hell should we advocate the reading of the Qur’an…"** Well, kimstu, I understand that the book in question is only a book about the koran. But the advocation part is right. Why should books of any religion be forced on students at a public university? Does this mean that next year a christian book is okay to be forced on the freshmen students? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/98 "2002-07-22T13:43:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Double Darren \* > RtFirefly, ODU? …I didn’t go to Old Dominion. Neither did I, in the sense of ever being a full-time student there. But I took a class there when I was living and working in Newport News, so I imagine it’s possible for a Va.Beach resident to do the same, if he’s willing to take a break from hanging out with his crew. > [@](#): > > The OP presupposes that an “education” (a good one) is anything handed to freshman students. No, all it assumes is a reasonably intact system of higher education. College professors get to be college professors primarily by demonstrating expertise and contributing to new knowledge in their fields. These are the persons who select the course texts, on the basis of that expertise. Someone who goes to college has attained competence in some basic areas of knowledge, but still knows a hell of a lot less than the profs. The student is paying the profs to act as guides into some of that higher learning. If you’ve chosen a particular outfit to act as your guides on this sort of journey, and they fail you in a sufficiently clear-cut way, you may have a case down the road. But if you’re going to question their judgment from the get-go, why did you choose that outfit to guide you in the first place, rather than the competition down the road at NC State, UNC-Charlotte, or wherever? I think **Fretful** ’s right: this is about the ‘consumer’ approach to education. The problem is, buying a liberal-arts education (which is what UNC is selling) isn’t like buying a microwave oven. With the microwave, I know exactly what my needs are. But with a liberal-arts education, you don’t, really. A liberal-arts education isn’t just about preparing oneself for a career; it’s about being made to look at and think about things you often wouldn’t have thought about on your own. Sounds to me like this course is right up that alley. Too bad UNC wussed on it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/99 "2002-07-22T13:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Double Darren \* > **Kimstu** > > **"And just why the bloody hell should we advocate the reading of the Qur’an…"** > > Well, kimstu, I understand that the book in question is only a book about the koran. But the advocation part is right. Why should books of any religion be forced on students at a public university? Does this mean that next year a christian book is okay to be forced on the freshmen students? In my first post that gained your notice, I explained this one at length to **Lizard**. Feel free to read that part of the post. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991/100 "2002-07-22T14:16:40Z")
[celestina fingering her virtual paddle] **Double Darren** , I declare I am confused! You said you question Sells’ book, and I have no problem with folks questioning books. _However,_ unless I miss my guess, one _cannot_ effectively _question_ a book or conclude whether or not it is interesting if _one does not take the time to read it!_ Do you understand what I’m saying? :mad: It is intellectually honest and a fundamental of serious critical thinking to read a text that one is trying to question, rather than to be shooting around in the dark and assuming that one knows what the author is talking about. Now, I took the time to quote for you Sells’ own words about what his purpose is in the book in question. You appear to be interested in Suras, as you’ve been posting in this thread asking folks questions about Suras from the Qur’an, yet you cannot take the time to go to the library and get a copy of Sells’ book, which does contain _from the Muslim perspective_ the most popular and best known Suras from the Qur’an, and it comes with a CD with recordings of folks speaking these select Suras in Arabic. Also, I asked you after I quoted Sells’ if that paragraph of his prose taught you something that you didn’t know before you read it, and you didn’t answer that question either. Hmmm. I wonder why? I wonder if you really are interested in learning about the Suras in the Qur’an. I’m not saying this book is the only way to do so, but it is a start. I just don’t understand what it is exactly you are doing, but my bullshit meter is going off where your intentions in this thread are concerned, and you need to think about that before you post again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-0-ignorance-1/119991.md?page=6)