# UNC now requires all students learn Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946 "2002-08-08T12:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/41 "2002-08-09T03:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **There is no question that there are serious problems in the world today due to many muslims believing their religion supports violence against infidels. I would think a study of those suras and an explanation of how they should be interpreted would be pretty important.** Is there no question about that after all? I think that statement in itself represents an unbalanced perspective. I think that there are _many_ questions yet to be answered about this subject, and casting blame solely against “many Muslims” is part of the reason that such misunderstandings exist. Perhaps the UNC class seeks to offer a different perspective than the prevailing one, so eloquently expressed just now by you, **sailor**. Perhaps it seeks to understand why so many people share the Muslim faith, seperate from the issue of violence and terrorism. So many people in this country equate terrorism and the Muslim faith, I would value a discussion which seperated the two. You didn’t answer my earlier question, but I’ll ask another anyway… when studying why the Christian faithful believe what they believe, is it necessary to study the Inquisition and the Crusades and the other atrocities Christian extremists have committed against various groups? Or would a fair, contextual perspective from within be preferable? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/42 "2002-08-09T04:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SwimmingwithChickens \* > \*\*Thanks. My fear isn’t about learning about Islam. I’ve took two comparative religion courses when I was in college, I had no objection then because I knew what I was getting into before hand. My fear is that schools will use UNC’s example and include similar works (Bible for ex.) I know this is a hypothetical, but still, what if Billy Graham wrote a book discussing Christianity using direct quotes from the KJV (or which ever he uses) for example, John 3:16? > > What about a book discussing Atheism? \*\* As an Athesist, I would like it if the Bible was discussed in schools. I think many students would be surprised to find out that different religions have a different view of something as basic as what the 10 commandments are. Or that there are two different versions of it in different parts of the Bible. It would also be good to learn that there is not complete agreement as to what books make up the Bible. I remember when the Lord’s Prayer was said in public school and the Roman Catholic version was used in my school rather than the Protestant version. The teachers were not aware that there was a difference. Learning that there are different versions of the Bible might make people rethink whether prayers should be recited or the 10 commandments posted. I know that people sincerely want to help us heathen Atheists, but I don’t think they want to make other religious people uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/43 "2002-08-09T04:23:23Z")
Colleges constantly assign books that you may or may not agree with. I was in a class that had us read Milton Friedman and Karl Marx. Does this mean _everyone_ gets to be upset? No. It means that as a serious scholar you have to examine the great forces in our world. even when they are forces that you disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/44 "2002-08-09T10:01:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > What really bums me is that not one of the Gobear-haters here, like **TwistofFate** , will ever read this post. For a start, I dont hate you. I disagree with you on a number of issues, but I don’t hate you. If you are trying to inply that I have you on an ignore list then you are wrong. I do not use the ignore function. And if you were trying to imply that, I believe the moderators might not take too kindly to your discussion of Ignore lists. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/45 "2002-08-09T10:13:46Z")
Or he might be saying that you don’t read GD 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/46 "2002-08-09T10:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > If you are trying to inply that I have you on an ignore list then you are wrong. I do not use the ignore function. And if you were trying to imply that, I believe the moderators might not take too kindly to your discussion of Ignore lists. No, that didn’t even occur to me. I ignore the idea of Ignore Lists. What I was referring to was that you, and a number of others, only read my Pit posts on religion, and do not take into account the more balanced view you might get from reading my GD posts. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/47 "2002-08-09T11:04:44Z")
Just because I don’t post often to GD, dosen’t mean I don’t read it. I find that GD very often gets above my comprehension. I tend to restrict my GD to what I know about. This is the thing gobear. I **know** you are capable of well rounded discussion and debate. I know that you have got the ability to see the opposing side of view, and can formulate an argument. But I rarely see that side of you in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/48 "2002-08-09T11:26:08Z")
That’s because the rules for the Pit and GD are different. To use a TV comparison. GD is akin to a BBC news show–balanced, fair, genteel; the Pit is more like the Jerry Springer show, albeit with better dentistry. One can vent in the Pit, but one must discuss issues here in modulated tones. Hence the difference in my posts. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/49 "2002-08-09T11:56:43Z")
This UNC dispute seems downright silly to me. One of the main purposes of education is to reduce ignorance on important issues. Requiring a student to read a book “about” the Nazis or slavery is not to advocate such positions, but to replace ignorance with knowledge on an important topic. Surely the subject of Islam is sufficiently weighty to merit its study and equally certain many students lack knowledge of it. As far as requiring someone to study something they personally find objectionable, when did this become the course standard? This case is a college, no one is required to attend. It’s optional. But even in grade school where attendance is mandatory, students are required to hear information they may dislike or do not agree with. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/50 "2002-08-09T12:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*That’s because the rules for the Pit and GD are different. To use a TV comparison. GD is akin to a BBC news show–balanced, fair, genteel; the Pit is more like the Jerry Springer show, albeit with better dentistry. One can vent in the Pit, but one must discuss issues here in modulated tones. Hence the difference in my posts. \*\* Just because you are on the Jerry Springer Show, doesn’t mean you have to propose to an inbred lapdancer and her cousin. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/51 "2002-08-09T13:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*My point is that I am under the impression that the book (which I have not read) is not a balanced view but is a biased view. _IF_ that is so, then I would think a more balanced view would be better study. > > Given that today the violent nature of many muslims is quite a common topic, it seems the suras which talk about killing infidels should be the last ones to be left out. They should be the first ones to be studied and the professor can explain all the context he wants. But leaving them out and looking at the rest seems a bit unbalanced. > > There is no question that there are serious problems in the world today due to many muslims believing their religion supports violence against infidels. I would think a study of those suras and an explanation of how they should be interpreted would be pretty important. \*\* Well, hold on a minute. We have to remember the context in which students are being asked to read this book. From the UNC wesite: _“The Carolina Summer Reading Program is designed to introduce you to the intellectual life of Carolina. Required of all new undergraduate students (first year and transfer), it involves reading an assigned book over the summer, writing a one-page response to a particular subject, participating in a two-hour discussion, and sharing your written response with others. The goals of the program are to stimulate discussion and critical thinking around a current topic, to introduce you to academic life at Carolina, to enhance a sense of community between students, faculty and staff, and to provide a common experience for incoming students.”_ A comprehensive survey of Islamic religion, culture and history is plainly out of the question. The main goal of the program is not really to inform students about Islam (or whatever subjects may be picked in other years), but to “stimulate discussion and critical thinking”, and to build community. To the extent that students come to a fuller understanding of Islam that is, of course, a good thing, but it’s not the primary objective. And, whatever topic is picked, the specific issues actually studied will necessarily be highly selective. How much can you hope to address in one book, a one-page paper and a two-hour discussion? It seems to me that for these purposes picking some aspect of Islam which is _not_ the subject of heated controversy and/or the aspect most discussed in popular discourse is quite a good idea. It may be easier for incoming students (most of whom will be fresh high school graduates) to practice their possibly quite undeveloped critical faculties discussing something about which they have not already been offered preconceived notions. It may also be enlightening to them to discover that Islam _has_ dimensions other than those which are currently discussed in the media. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/52 "2002-08-09T13:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite- are you suggesting that American History classes in the U.S. are whitewashed, sanitzied pap that merely tells kids how wonderful and perfect America is? > > If so, I’d LOVE to know where you grew up. That was NEVER my experience. My grade school and high school history texts were clearly written by people with a left-wing, anti-patriotic agenda. I can’t speak to **hazel-rah** ’s upbringing, **astorian** , but that’s more or less what my K-12 courses looked like as I was growing up in Fairfax County, VA. We even had a great Virginia History course (4th grade, I believe) that left us with the strong impression that the Negroes were happier as slaves than free, and that freeing them had just led to a whole bunch of trouble and discontent. How’s _that_ for whitewash? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/53 "2002-08-11T18:26:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, hold on a minute. We have to remember the context in which students are being asked to read this book. Well yes, but we have to ask if this is the _right_ context. The fact is, the reason Islam has risen into prominence as a topic for discussion in the U.S. in the last year is because it is being used by some as an excuse to kill Americans. To offer a course on Islam that uses a book which intentionally excises all passages which are used for this purpose is simply not a good idea right now. They would be better off with a course _focusing_ on the violent aspects of Islam, with the intention of showing them in context with the whole religion, and explaining why those people who use them to attack Americans are wrong. That’s the way to understand what’s going on. The vast majority of muslims are peaceful people. But some are not. Focusing on the peaceful aspects of Islam, given the nature of what’s going on in the world today, simply misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/54 "2002-08-11T19:15:27Z")
**Sam,** it is not a course. It is a pre-admissions reading assignment that is followed up by a short paper and a two hour discussion. UNC’s intent is not to show students “what’s going on in the world today”. Why is that so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/55 "2002-08-11T19:26:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, hold on a minute. We have to remember the context in which students are being asked to read this book. Well yes, but we have to ask if this is the _right_ context. The fact is, the reason Islam has risen into prominence as a topic for discussion in the U.S. in the last year is because it is being used by some as an excuse to kill Americans. To offer a course on Islam that uses a book which intentionally excises all passages which are used for this purpose is simply not a good idea right now. They would be better off with a course _focusing_ on the violent aspects of Islam, with the intention of showing them in context with the whole religion, and explaining why those people who use them to attack Americans are wrong. That’s the way to understand what’s going on. The vast majority of muslims are peaceful people. But some are not. Focusing on the peaceful aspects of Islam, given the nature of what’s going on in the world today, simply misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/56 "2002-08-11T19:28:43Z")
hazel-rah: > [@](#): > > I grew up in Houston and went to public schools, and that was my experience. My American history classes were extremely critical of America. Maybe they have gotten progressively more critical? I was in high school not too long ago. Avalonian: > [@](#): > > You didn’t answer my earlier question, but I’ll ask another anyway… when studying why the Christian faithful believe what they believe, is it necessary to study the Inquisition and the Crusades and the other atrocities Christian extremists have committed against various groups? Or would a fair, contextual perspective from within be preferable? If the crusades were going on right now, and were based on certain interpretations of the bible, of course it would be necessary to study those interpretations! It is ridiculous to only study parts of Islam which are never interpreted as violent, because right now we are dealing with violent interpretations. The _most_ important thing to do is to explain why violent interpretations are not correct, or are not the only interpretation, and explain how the controversial parts do not mean that Islam is not a peaceful religion. Avoiding the issue will only cause more ignorance, because those who have a bad opinion of Islam will have their beliefs reinforced by the perception that something bad is being avoided, while those unaware of controversial parts of the Koran will have their ignorance reinforced by the perception that controversial parts are so unimportant as to not even be worth mentioning. College should not be a place that supports ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/57 "2002-08-19T17:23:30Z")
[Salon.com](http://Salon.com) Wire: [Court won’t halt UNC Quran course](http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2002/08/19/unc_quran/index.html) \Eeeeexcellent.\ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946/58 "2002-08-19T19:15:31Z")
Just so Dopers get a feel for the style of the guys who brought the lawsuit, from their website( [http://www.familypolicy.net/](http://www.familypolicy.net/) ): “UNC WINS AND LOSES ISLAM CASE The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals will allow Islamic indoctrination sessions to proceed at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.” “Indoctrination sessions”?? Cut the dosage guys…or up it as the case warrants. I think it’s fair to have a discussion on a book outlining mainstream Muslim thought (that omits extremist intrepretations). Remember also that this is a paper and two hour discussion. I would be suprised if the topic of terrorist beliefs didn’t come up- but now they can be discussed from the perspective of mainstream beliefs. How can this be a harmful exercise?(remember everyone this is not a required course, it is a one page paper and discussion) The problem is that the people bringing this lawsuit believe that the radical interpretation of the Quran **is** the mainstream view and thus the book distorts facts but not presenting it as so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unc-now-requires-all-students-learn-islam/122946.md?page=2)