# Uncle Bruce's Cabin: A Media Rant **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 13, 2001, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983 "2001-08-13T02:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/41 "2001-08-14T16:19:30Z")
“I have to admit I’d like the drag queens and trannies to stop being the center of attention for a while just because they ARE reducing the visibility of other gay men. Admit it, when America thinks ‘gay,’ it thinks of screaming, in-your-face men in cocktail dresses lipsyncing to Madonna tunes.” —Anyone here like to address the fact that some—not all—gay men can be very “transphobic” and feel called upon to ridicule the transgendered to make themselves feel more “normal?” Kinda like the hatred some insecure light-skinned blacks can have toward dark-skinned blacks? “We may be gay, but at least we’re not as weird as those fucking drag queens and trannies!” I’ve noticed the gay male writers of “Sex and the City” and “Will and Grace” tiptoe around homophobia, but are perfectly happy to make vicious anti-transgender jokes . . . ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/42 "2001-08-14T16:32:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Say, the oppression of genderQueers, young Queers, marginalized/poor Queers,… before I start talking flower arrangements.) A. What’s a genderQueer? B. Young gay folk have it easy. Coming out today is nothing compare to coming out in the late 70’s in the rural South, like me. You think gay teens think about suicide now? Think about an era when there were no gay youth centers, no gay youth helplines, no support at all. The entire gay culture panders to young gay men, so get over yourself. If you want to talk about marginalized, think about elderly gays and lesbians. They are often alone in the world, they are ostracized by other gay people, and gay men and lesbians are often badly treated in nursing homes. Who speaks for them? C. Hey, I’m laid off and getting rapidly poor, do I qualify as oppressed? > [@](#): > > —Anyone here like to address the fact that some—not all—gay men can be very “transphobic” and feel called upon to ridicule the transgendered to make themselves feel more "normal Don’t look at me. I just want the drag queens and trannies to stop hogging the spotlight. I have a great deal of sympathy for transgendered people, who come in for a hell of a lot of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/43 "2001-08-14T16:45:06Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think goboy’s point is that gays are like everyone else-there’s no “norm” or rule to follow, so it’s stupid to think every gay person is a flamer, even though some are, some aren’t. It would be like assuming every lesbian is a butch manly woman who could beat up your dad, or something like that. Am I hitting it close? Or am I way off? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/44 "2001-08-14T17:01:21Z")
Exactly, **Guinastasia**! I am tired of all gay men being portrayed as flaming, drug-using, promiscuous queers. That doesn’t mean I want **Matt** and company to be invisible; it’s not either/or. I just want America to see that gay men can do home repair and play football as well as sing show tunes and accessorize. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/45 "2001-08-14T17:12:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*It would be like assuming every lesbian is a butch manly woman who could beat up your dad, or something like that. > \*\* Right–everyone knows that all lesbians look like Kate Capshaw and Elle MacPherson. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SFCanadian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SFCanadian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SFCanadian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/46 "2001-08-14T17:55:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Anyone here like to address the fact that some not all gay men can be very “transphobic” and feel called upon to ridicule the transgendered to make themselves feel more “normal?” Kinda like the hatred some insecure light-skinned blacks can have toward dark-skinned blacks? “We may be gay, but at least we’re not as weird as those fucking drag queens and trannies!” I’ve noticed the gay male writers of “Sex and the City” and “Will and Grace” tiptoe around homophobia, but are perfectly happy to make vicious anti-transgender jokes . . . \*\* Eve, I totally agree with you… It drives me crazy to hear Gay men making anti-women comments and jokes or jokes about trannies… I always think that people who are comfortable with themselves don’t have a problem with diversity… and that INCLUDES Gays and Lesbians… It was Trannies who fought for us at Stonewall, but when we want “acceptance”, we’re willing to dump em at the drop of the hat… SFCanadian ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/47 "2001-08-14T19:04:17Z")
I don’t want to imply that all—or even most—gays do this. But I stopped watching “Sex and the City” and “Will and Grace,” for instance, because of the spectacle of gay writers trying to get laffs from straight audiences by saying cruel, vicious things about the transgendered. Left a bad taste in my mouth. But I’m sure it’s not typical. At least, I hope it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/48 "2001-08-14T21:56:13Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Eve_ > Kinda like the hatred some insecure light-skinned blacks can have toward dark-skinned blacks? It’s more usual for insecure dark-skinned blacks to be atagonistic toward light-skinned blacks because supposedly “light-skinned blacks think they’re better because they have good hair and light skin.” [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/49 "2001-08-14T23:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > > That’s exactly what I accuse **MattMCL** of doing. His insistence that only he is really gay–oh, sorry, Queer-- and the rest of us are just “straight-acting” wanna-be-heteros is bullshit. \*\* Oh, yes. It’s especially bullshit when you consider that I never made any such statement in this thread, and I’ll enjoy watching you try and find it. > [@](#): > > You think gay teens think about suicide now? Think about an era when there were no gay youth centers, no gay youth helplines, no support at all. I’m 19, and every single one of my young gay friends has been suicidal several times while they were coming out, without exception. You were saying? > [@](#): > > The entire gay culture panders to young gay men, so get over yourself. Hmm. Well, I must say I’ve never felt myself particularly pandered to. **Particularly not as a young _femme_ gay man!!** > [@](#): > > If you want to talk about marginalized, think about elderly gays and lesbians. They are often alone in the world, they are ostracized by other gay people, and gay men and lesbians are often badly treated in nursing homes. Who speaks for them? Thanks for the reminder. I’ll add them to the list. I’m sorry I forgot. (no sarcasm) > [@](#): > > “Screw equal rights for gays as a whole, I want to alienate the bourgeoisie!” Alienating the bourgeoisie has nothing to do with it. There are more important fights than gay marriage and gays in the military; things that affect many more Queers with greater immediacy and urgence than those. Also, you never addressed the following: > [@](#): > > _matt\_mcl:_ Don’t you see the contradiction inherent in my (note: my - not your) having to adopt a false persona in order to mollify my own oppressors enough into having my rights respected? Isn’t that the very definition of the closet? Oh, I’ll just leave you with this final thought: > [@](#): > > The more [gay people] are portrayed on screen as understandable human beings, the more threatening they seem off-screen. …No one - whether supportive about gay rights or not - should confuse the fantasy tolerance of television with a culture in which gays are treated as equal citizens. > > - Richard Goldstein ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/50 "2001-08-15T00:31:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > > \*\*It would be like assuming every lesbian is a butch manly woman who could beat up your dad, or something like that. > > \*\* > > Right–everyone knows that all lesbians look like Kate Capshaw and Elle MacPherson. 😛 \*\* No, that’s just who most horny guys FANTASIZE about when they think of lesbians. 😉 I think too that perhaps not all gay characters on tv should be characatchures (I KNOW I butchered that spelling, mmmkay?) to poke fun at. I mean, there are straight people who are, what would you say-outside the norm? Like dressing a certain way, or something like that. That doesn’t mean all straight people dress one way or another. The same holds true for gays. (BTW, I saw the commercial where John Goodman made the “big girl” comment-I assumed he was being sarcastic, but I didn’t see the show.) ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/51 "2001-08-15T01:27:13Z")
If you want to go to lesbian relationships, Willow and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Kim and Kerry on ER both have extremely well-done relationships. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/52 "2001-08-15T02:54:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, yes. It’s especially bullshit when you consider that I never made any such statement in this thread, and I’ll enjoy watching you try and find it OK, you never said it word for word, but it comes across in your tone. I have repeatedly said I don’t want you to be invisible–how many times how do I have to say it? I just want there to be other images of gay men besides drag queens and witty, effeminate men. Right now I’m flipping through cable and _Flawless_ is on–yet **another** movie featuring a tragic drag queen. _Holiday Heart_ _The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert_ _Hedwig and the Angry Inch_ _To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar_ _Torch Song Trilogy_ Not all gay men wear drag! Is that too hard a concept for you to grasp, Matt? I don’t want the drag queens to vanish, but I would like you to recognize that it is legitimate for me to want to see more movies like _The Broken Hearts Club_ or _Big Eden_. I am not a drag queen, I don’t go clubbing, I don’t do drugs, but I do like sports, I know how to use tools, and I drink beer. Where is my image in the movies or TV? I’m sorry that your gay friends have been suicidal. That truly stinks, especially in this day and age. What really infuriates me though is you are always intelligent and reasonable, which makes it hard to argue with you. Still, I wish I could take you in a time machine to show you what life was like for my generation, and maybe you’d understand, especially since you have no first-hand knowledge of how scary life was in the early 80’s. **Andygirl** excellent point about Tara/Willow.I haven’t been watching ER, so I can’t comment on the storyline there. Lesbians have great coverage in the media. I wish we had a gay male Xena! (Hercules and Iolaus don’t count.) ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/53 "2001-08-15T02:56:23Z")
**goboy** what makes you think that normal people will ever be in the spotlight? To get attention you actually have to try to get it. For them to reduce their visibility would not automatically increase yours. Theres no reason it would. They visible because they are. You aren’t because you don’t have to be. [GenderQueer](http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Transgendered/Genderqueer/) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/54 "2001-08-15T03:09:17Z")
Who said being transgendered isn’t normal? It’s just one part of the human spectrum. I just want Matt to acknowledge that it’s legitimate to want to see gay men on screen who are like me, not flamboyant. I couldn’t be witty or camp if I tried. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/55 "2001-08-15T03:25:05Z")
Yikes, I just got scolded by Philp Seymour Hoffman! In a scene in _Flawless_, which I’m watching on Cinemax2West (God Bless Digital Cable), Log Cabin Republicans are suggesting to the drag queens that they should not use floats but march on foot, to which one DQ shouts, “You just think we can’t march in heels!” Hoffman says something like, “You’re ashamed of us, but we’re not ashamed of you. As long as you go down on your Republican knees and suck cock, you’re our sisters, and we love you. Now fuck off!” I think that’s Matt’s gist. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/56 "2001-08-15T05:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*Yikes, I just got scolded by Philp Seymour Hoffman! > In a scene in _Flawless_, which I’m watching on Cinemax2West (God Bless Digital Cable), Log Cabin Republicans are suggesting to the drag queens that they should not use floats but march on foot, to which one DQ shouts, “You just think we can’t march in heels!” > > Hoffman says something like, “You’re ashamed of us, but we’re not ashamed of you. As long as you go down on your Republican knees and suck cock, you’re our sisters, and we love you. Now fuck off!” > > I think that’s Matt’s gist. \*\* Which is the point I was trying to make. I fall in the spectrum between you and matt. Some men have seen me as too butch, others as too femme. I’m me. I’m not aspiring to a stereotype, and I am not being anything others than I am. I don’t expect you to be other than you are. Don’t expect me to be other than I am and say that I should be like you. But, I think you understand that now. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/57 "2001-08-15T09:14:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*Hoffman says something like, “You’re ashamed of us, but we’re not ashamed of you. As long as you go down on your Republican knees and suck cock, you’re our sisters, and we love you. Now fuck off!” > > I think that’s Matt’s gist. \*\* Oh, my god, that’s perfect. It is now being added to my quotes page. And you (and he) have got my gist, more or less. It’s important to me, but I’m sorry to be such a bitch about it. Group hug! ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/58 "2001-08-15T11:27:20Z")
my god people! have you thought what you’re actually asking the tv companies to do? every tv show would have a cast of thousands… in Britain i think it’s done a bit better. a DQ and a transgendered person in the docusoap Paddinton Green. Hayley in Corrie who is transgendered …and played by a woman…who is pregnant…which is giving the scriptwriters problems. Tony and Tiffany’s brother, and a mixed-race lesbian couple a few years ago, in Eastenders. Zoe the lesbian veterinarian in Emmerdale…admittedly, she was in a relationship with a truck driver called Frankie… the original Queer as Folk- gays and lesbians a-plenty and (i think) Vince is a “normal” straight-acting gay guy, he’s a supermarket manager…and a Doctor Who fan. as opposed to Stuart who is a bit more of a stereotype. and the “fabulous” sections of the gay community have Metrosexuality. which was dire, but that’s beside the point…they were all very pretty. there are some more, but those are the ones that spring to mind. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/59 "2001-08-15T11:30:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by irishgirl \* > \*\*the original Queer as Folk- gays and lesbians a-plenty and (i think) Vince is a “normal” straight-acting gay guy, he’s a supermarket manager…and a Doctor Who fan. > as opposed to Stuart who is a bit more of a stereotype. > \*\* Point of fact: Vince is a geek, which is a different axis altogether from butch/femme. I lust after him. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983/60 "2001-08-15T13:18:09Z")
“Who said being transgendered isn’t normal? It’s just one part of the human spectrum. I just want Matt to acknowledge that it’s legitimate to want to see gay men on screen who are like me, not flamboyant. I couldn’t be witty or camp if I tried.” —None of my transgendered friends are flamboyant or camp (though they ARE witty, or they wouldn’t be my friends). One is a factory worker; another is a research chemist; another is a world-reknowned travel writer. All very low-key and not at ALL like the flaming-queen-hooker-trannies seen on TV or the movies. You think GAYS have a bad public image . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-bruces-cabin-a-media-rant/75983.md?page=2)