# Uncle Sam owes USA Workers Our Jobs Back... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591 "2003-05-21T16:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/21 "2003-05-22T16:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > \*\*What is the percentage of instances in which a foreign move results in cheaper products for American consumers vs those which only serve to increase corporate profits and shaft American workers (excluding upper management – of course :D)? > > IME, outsourcing doesn’t often result in cheaper product costs to the consumer. Prices are generally adjusted by what the market will bear. \*\* While I’m not upper management, I prosper from increased corporate profits. If corporations can increase profits and keep share value high, I’ll be able to retire and not have to worry or burden my family. I’ll be able to send my children to college without incurring a mountain of debt (only a large hill). The corporate employees who work stateside will have jobs, pay taxes, and have disposable income to spread through the economy. They will buy houses, and I’ve yet to see construction outsourced to foreign countries - non-union immigrant workers, maybe, but not foreign countries. And to answer your question, automobiles and steel are cheaper due to moves overseas. Computer and other consumer electronics prices have fallen steadily thanks to reduced labor costs overseas. And thanks to falling computer prices, Dell employs over 28,000 people in the Americas, with _two_ computer manufacturing plants in the US and only one in Brazil (for this region). ---
**Author:** ![Grim714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Grim714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim714)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/22 "2003-05-22T16:12:41Z")
When you can outsource your production and support to foreign countries, what need is there to hire more workers in the US beyond McJobs? IMO, this search for ever increasing profits does nothing to help middle America. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/23 "2003-05-22T18:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > IMO, this search for ever increasing profits does nothing to help middle America. \*\* So what do you recommend? Searching for lower profits? There will always be jobs that need to be done that aren’t just working in Burger King and not every job can be outsourced overseas. It is not cost effective to have every product shipped over from China or India. I would be all for tariffs and protectionism if I thought it worked. It doesn’t though. The end result is that you the consumer end up having to pay more for a product than you have to. Would you rather be a waiter or teacher and afford a nice house, a car, and lots of stuff, or be a banker or lawyer who can barely pay his bills because everything is so expensive? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/24 "2003-05-22T18:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > \*\*When you can outsource your production and support to foreign countries, what need is there to hire more workers in the US beyond McJobs? > > IMO, this search for ever increasing profits does nothing to help middle America. \*\* So, what % of jobs is it OK to outsource oveseas? None? Surely not. If you pick any numnber, then it is completely arbitrary. The market is the best determing factor. WHat do you propose-- a law to prevent complanies from expanding overseas? It’s an international economy. If you can’t adjust to that, you don’t stand a chance. Jobs are being created in the US all the time. Remember that 25 years ago there wasn’t even a DELL COMPUTER company in existance (I could be off on the exact year, but my point is still valid). ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/25 "2003-05-22T21:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > What is the percentage of instances in which a foreign move results in cheaper products for American consumers vs those which only serve to increase corporate profits and shaft American workers (excluding upper management – of course :D)? > > IME, outsourcing doesn’t often result in cheaper product costs to the consumer. \*\*Prices are generally adjusted by what the market will bear. \*\* Emphasis added. You answered your own question - 100% of foreign moves result in cheaper products for American consumers. What do companies compete on? - quality and price. If company X moves its production to China, it will have greatly increased profits - until its competitor also moves its production to China. Under your view of the world, at that point both companies keep their prices high and screw the US worker. But that ain’t the real world. In the real world, if neither company cuts their prices, a third company will see that there are still ample profits to be made even if they sell the product at a lower price. So they come in, set up production in China, and sell the product in the US at a lower cost. At that point, the original two companies, afraid of losing market share (and thus, profits), also cut their prices. And so, we pay less for products. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Grim714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Grim714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim714)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/26 "2003-05-22T23:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > So what do you recommend? Searching for lower profits? Lower profits? No, but there is a big difference between smart long term growth and stupid short term gains. At some point shipping billions and billions of dollars overseas in the form of salaries (which will be largely spent in the local economy) will hurt the US. It’s not only relatively low end manufacturing jobs that are leaving the country any longer. Now it is tech and financial as well… There are tons of jobs in both of these sectors that do not require a physical presence to be performed properly. > [@](#): > > It’s an international economy. If you can’t adjust to that, you don’t stand a chance. I realize this is true but how can American workers compete in the workforce against people in third world countries that can thrive on 10 or 20 percent of the American salaries? > [@](#): > > But that ain’t the real world. In the real world, if neither company cuts their prices, a third company will see that there are still ample profits to be made even if they sell the product at a lower price. So they come in, set up production in China, and sell the product in the US at a lower cost. At that point, the original two companies, afraid of losing market share (and thus, profits), also cut their prices. > > And so, we pay less for products. So you say, but what you state as fact only seems to be a general theory. Let’s see some evidence to prove that it works out this way 100% of the time. I don’t believe that it does. How much do Nike shoes cost? [Business Week - The New Global Job Shift](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_05/b3818001.htm) > [@](#): > > A thornier question: What happens if all those displaced white-collar workers can’t find greener pastures? Sure, tech specialists, payroll administrators, and Wall Street analysts will land new jobs. But will they be able to make the same money as before? It’s possible that lower salaries for skilled work will outweigh the gains in corporate efficiency. “If foreign countries specialize in high-skilled areas where we have an advantage, we could be worse off,” says Harvard University economist Robert Z. Lawrence, a prominent free-trade advocate. “I still have faith that globalization will make us better off, but it’s no more than faith.” > > If the worries prove valid, that could reshape the globalization debate. Until now, the adverse impact of free trade has been confined largely to blue-collar workers. But if more politically powerful middle-class Americans take a hit as white-collar jobs move offshore, opposition to free trade could broaden. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/27 "2003-05-22T23:04:45Z")
Grim: So how do you propose preventing jobs from going overseas? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/28 "2003-05-22T23:15:14Z")
I really didnt see any great price reduction on Nike shoes after they started producing them in a foreign country. Please tell us all how much Nike shoes went down in price. Also, a third company can only enter the market if the world economy and world governements are free, they arent, and there are lots of barriers to entry. You may be doing very well with your increased company profits, and your 401K may be doing just fine these past few years after NAFTA, but most people own companies whose stock has went down, most people have decreases in their 401K plans after our economy went global, and the people who used to work at jobs that Indians now do, or who had jobs at factories which closed and moved to Mexico or China, dont even have a 401K anymore. If things are so much better now, and corporate profits are so much higher now after NAFTA, then why is the stock market down? Why is our balance of trade so high? why is the dollar declining? Why is unemployment up? Why are our factories closing? If displaced unemployed americans can take other well paying jobs, what jobs are they? and where are these jobs? A lot of people would like to know. When will american companies start building factories over here? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/29 "2003-05-22T23:23:08Z")
Susanann: You forgot one question. Why did it rain so much last month in California? ---
**Author:** ![Grim714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Grim714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim714)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/30 "2003-05-22T23:32:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Grim: > > So how do you propose preventing jobs from going overseas? \*\* I have only recently recognized this problem and it’s potential severity, largely because it’s had an impact on my life and the lives of several people that I know. So, I don’t really have an answer for your question but I suppose government will have to step in and do something. How else can you get corporate America to do anything? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/31 "2003-05-22T23:34:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > \*\*I have only recently recognized this problem and it’s potential severity, largely because it’s had an impact on my life and the lives of several people that I know. So, I don’t really have an answer for your question but I suppose government will have to step in and do something. How else can you get corporate America to do anything? \*\* Give it some thought and let us know what that “something” is that the gov’t should do. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/32 "2003-05-23T00:55:05Z")
_Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask however what you can do for your country._ JFK ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/33 "2003-05-23T01:06:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Susanann: > > You forgot one question. Why did it rain so much last month in California? \*\* All of my questions should be easy for Mssmith537, and those like her, to answer, I am interested in hearing all of her answers, so are a lot of other people. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/34 "2003-05-23T01:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Susanann: > > You forgot one question. Why did it rain so much last month in California? \*\* Obviously, you cant answer any of the questions. You are for moving all american factories and jobs overseas to cheap labor, and you have no answers at all as to how to replace the jobs. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/35 "2003-05-23T01:53:57Z")
The problem is not creating jobs artificially even if they are not productive. The problem is making whatever jobs you are doing productive and competitive and the USA is the most productive country. Setting barriers to trade in order to create jobs will only lead to inefficient production and to higher prices for everybody. NO country has succeeded by doing that. Look at the world and the more protectionist a country is, the worse the economy. Creating jobs artificially if the are not productive just means the production has to be split more ways making everybody poorer. In comunist countries they had 100% employment but that diod not mean they were productive.paying $5 to an American to do what a Chinese will do for 50 cents would be a waste of money and not much different from just taxing others and paying that American $4.50 to stay home and do nothing. Those who think you can _force_ the market to behave in a certain way does not know what they are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Grim714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/34f0e0/32.png) [@Grim714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim714)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/36 "2003-05-23T01:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Give it some thought and let us know what that “something” is that the gov’t should do. \*\* What does the .gov generally do? They either add regulations which discourages business from acting in a manner which is harmful or add incentives to encourage positive business practices. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/37 "2003-05-23T02:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim714 \* > I have only recently recognized this problem and it’s potential severity, largely because it’s had an impact on my life and the lives of several people that I know. So, I don’t really have an answer for your question but I suppose government will have to step in and do something. How else can you get corporate America to do anything? \*\* Simple. You apply financial incentives to attract companies here. That’s what states and cities do to attract businesses locally. Susanann - FYI it’s MR. MSmith537. I have the answer to some of your question. - If things are so much better now, and corporate profits are so much higher now after NAFTA, then why is the stock market down? It’s because the economy is cyclical. Sometimes it’s up. Sometimes it’s down. We are still feeling the effects of coming down from one of the most irrational booms in history, a few unprecidented corporate scandles, the worst terrorist attack in history, a war and so on. - Why is our balance of trade so high? - why is the dollar declining? - Why is unemployment up? - Why are our factories closing? - If displaced unemployed americans can take other well paying jobs, what jobs are they? - and where are these jobs? - A lot of people would like to know. - When will american companies start building factories over here? I don’t have the answer to a lot of these questions. There does not necessarily have to be a happy answer. There is nothing that says that America will never reach a point where we will find it dificult to compete internationally just because we are America. If other nations improve their education standards while working for cheaper wages, we are going to have serious problems. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/38 "2003-05-23T02:56:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Arthur Anderson was, IIRC, the auditors. They paid the ultimate price. \*\* Seppuku? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/39 "2003-05-23T05:33:25Z")
So desu ne! ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591/40 "2003-05-23T13:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\* > Susanann - FYI it’s MR. MSmith537. > > . \*\* Sorry. I thought it was MS, instead of M Smith [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncle-sam-owes-usa-workers-our-jobs-back/176591.md?page=3)