# UncleBeer, I am mildly disturbed by one of your thread closures **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921 "2003-01-16T05:04:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/21 "2003-01-16T12:45:40Z")
\>\> The Chigago Reader basically has to cover its back, \>\> If Chicago Reader is forced to close the board we will all suffer. False premises. Both of them. The Chicago Reader is not subject to the laws of those countries and there is no way in the world that it would have _any_ responsibility of any kind. This is strictly their personal decision and not based on any possibility of liability. And I disagree with that decision because I believe we should have some moral values. I understand that laws in different democratic countries and US States may be different and they should be respected because they are the laws those people have given themselves. But to equate those laws with the laws of dictatorial rulers is ludicrous and very specially when those laws are about restricting people’s freedoms. If anyone should be for freedom of expression it should be a newspaper. To put convenience and practicality before morality is a pretty bad thing to do. Personally I try to respect the laws of those countries but, if I have the opportunity to help someone escape from Cuba, or avoid genital mutilation in Africa or practice their religion in China, I will do it even at some risk to me and so much more if what I am doing is legal and at no risk to me. Anything else is immoral. Human rights come before any laws enforced by dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/22 "2003-01-16T13:10:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*The Chicago Reader could be seen to facilitate the breaking of a law in some remote corner of the world. Doing so might leave the Reader liable to a suit under the Alien Tort Claims Act, if that facilitation results in harm (in the form of legal penalties) to a user of the board in that remote corner of the world. “My husband wouldn’t have had his hands cut off if it weren’t for your wicked message board. I’m suing the Chicago Reader for loss of income for the remainder of his life, as well as $100,000 in punitive damages. See you in court.” \*\* The [ATCA](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/1350.html) doesn’t work that way. It only allows an alien to sue in US federal courts when “committed in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States.” Ironically, the ATCA has been used to allow aliens from repressive regimes to sue the leaders of those regime for tort damages – for example, suit was recently brought against Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe. [Cite](http://www.asil.org/insights/insigh50.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/23 "2003-01-16T13:11:42Z")
Errr…stupid erroneous underlining. The point was it only applies to violations of international law or treaties of the US, and not to country-specific laws. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/24 "2003-01-16T13:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Pretty much. Questions about proxy servers are fine, but if your question reads “How can I use proxy servers to break the law?”, we’d be inclined to close such threads, even if the broken laws aren’t the Illinois or US ones. \*\* So would the question “how can I get a boat to escape from Cuba?” be similarly off-limits? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/25 "2003-01-16T13:26:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*So would the question “how can I get a boat to escape from Cuba?” be similarly off-limits? \*\* I don’t know the legality of that particular situation, but in any case, the board isn’t your only means of communication, is it? You could just respond with: Hey, what’s your e-mail address? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/26 "2003-01-16T13:29:04Z")
Depends. Is it per definition illegal in Cuba to take a boat and set off? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/27 "2003-01-16T13:29:26Z")
I’m going out for happy hour in Virginia tonight. Any advice on what bars I can go to in order to be “drunk in public” and not have the cops hassle me? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/28 "2003-01-16T13:31:57Z")
BTW, we have exactly ZERO evidence that using a proxy when in Saudi Arabia is illegal. Does Coldfire have any evidence of that? The fact that the government there blocks some sites is no evidence that using a proxy there is illegal. Do we have any evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/29 "2003-01-16T13:41:15Z")
Ignorance is no defence, **Sailor**. If _you_ can prove that it isn’t illegal, do so. So far, there’s a reasonable doubt about the legality, so the prudent thing to do is cut off the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/30 "2003-01-16T13:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Depends. Is it per definition illegal in Cuba to take a boat and set off? \*\* People don’t set off in leaky tubs that might kill them if they can take a nice commercial carrier. Taking a boat to Florida from Cuba is every bit as illegal in Cuba as going over the Berlin Wall was in East Germany. I can’t find a cite, but I recall reading a few years ago of Cuba actually sinking a boatful of refugees rather than letting them escape. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/31 "2003-01-16T13:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*I don’t know the legality of that particular situation, but in any case, the board isn’t your only means of communication, is it? You could just respond with: > > Hey, what’s your e-mail address? \*\* Well, jeepers, that’s helpful. The point of the boards is that we harness the collective knowledge of our members. If I’m a dissident looking to escape the Castro regime, it’s far less effective for me to ask individuals one-on-one through email how to get a boat than it is for me to ask in an open forum. And remember, that thread was closed for the _question asked_, not the _answer given_. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/32 "2003-01-16T13:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*So far, there’s a reasonable doubt about the legality, so the prudent thing to do is cut off the discussion. \*\* I think all parties agree that the _Reader_ is effectively beyond the reach of the Saudi courts on this issue. This isn’t a matter of “prudence” but one of respect. The question being, are these laws worth giving our respect to? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/33 "2003-01-16T13:50:05Z")
And if he posts his e-mail address, that prevents further communication with others how? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/34 "2003-01-16T13:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*I don’t think UB has any real say: If France can get [Yahoo] to stop selling Jackboots, I think Saudi Arabia could make the Chicago Reader dance to a marching tune. \*\* It’s worth noting, BTW and IIRC, that Yahoo has assets in France. The _Reader_ does not have assets in Saudi. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/35 "2003-01-16T13:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*And if he posts his e-mail address, that prevents further communication with others how? \*\* You’re being obtuse. Say I’m a dissident looking to emigrate. I post a thread titled “Help me find a boat to escape Cuba!” Under UncleBeer’s stated reason for closure, _that question alone violates board rules_. So what are you proposing as an alternative? A thread titled “Help! Send me an email for details!”? I think it’s pretty obvious why that is unsatisfactory. I doubt you would get nearly the same response for that thread. And, I’ll also note, that there is value in conducting these discussions in open fora – because there’s a record of the information, so maybe the next Cuban emigre won’t have try so hard to find the relevant information. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/36 "2003-01-16T14:01:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Ignorance is no defence, **Sailor**. > > If _you_ can prove that it isn’t illegal, do so. > > So far, there’s a reasonable doubt about the legality, so the prudent thing to do is cut off the discussion. \*\* Um , no. That is not the way things work. I cannot prove a negative. If there is a law in Saudi Arabia which makes it illegal then we can see it. Closing threads because something might, _maybe_ , conceivably, be illegal, is kind of stretching it. There are speed limits in many places but I think when we are discussing how to make my car go faster, we can assume it is legal unless we have clear evidence to the contrary. So far what we have is not the closing of a thread discussing something illegal even in Saudi Arabia. So far what we have is the closing of a thread which _maybe_, conceivably, would slightly annoy some dictatorial ruler if he cared. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/37 "2003-01-16T14:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > **You’re being obtuse. Say I’m a dissident looking to emigrate. I post a thread titled “Help me find a boat to escape Cuba!” Under UncleBeer’s stated reason for closure, _that question alone violates board rules_.** I’m not deliberately trying to be obtuse. I can fully understand your position, and I agree that an ideal message board would function as you advocate. I can also understand why the _Reader_ may not want to sponsor such an ideal message board. It’s a high risk, low pay-off strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/38 "2003-01-16T14:07:21Z")
Sailor wrote: > [@](#): > > I cannot prove a negative. Then you can’t prove that very assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/39 "2003-01-16T14:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*I can also understand why the _Reader_ may not want to sponsor such an ideal message board. It’s a high risk, low pay-off strategy. \*\* And what, exactly, is the risk? The _Reader_ is in about as much jeopardy from the Saudis as **Truth Seeker** is from the North Koreans. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921/40 "2003-01-16T14:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*So far what we have is not the closing of a thread discussing something illegal even in Saudi Arabia. So far what we have is the closing of a thread which _maybe_, conceivably, would slightly annoy some dictatorial ruler if he cared. \*\* **sailor** , extraterritoriality is a touchy subject. I don’t blame the _Chicago Reader_ for not wanting to involve itself in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unclebeer-i-am-mildly-disturbed-by-one-of-your-thread-closures/148921.md?page=3)