# Uncovering Gay Subtext in classics (probable open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155 "2006-05-02T21:45:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/41 "2006-05-03T23:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Are you sure about the single take? What I heard the last time I watched it, on TCM, was that it was a series of uninterupted 10-minute takes. [/QUOTE] So what’s the question here, “cut” vs. “uncut”? ---
**Author:** ![Bertie\_Wooster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@Bertie\_Wooster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bertie_Wooster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/42 "2006-05-04T00:49:10Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] On another occasion, it was through her (R Wickham) indirect efforts that Bertie ended up having to make a speech at a girls’ school. [/QUOTE] Well, to be fair, it was Jeeves who got me into trouble at the girls’ school, in text anyway. It was just at about the time I got to thinking of inviting my sister to live with me on her return from India, bringing her two young children with her. Honestly, Jeeves was able to remind me through that episodes what horrible little blots on the landscape young girls can be. The story’s the only one where the narrative voice, if that is the term I want, is that of Jeeves (“Bertie Changes His Mind”). Bobbie Wickham? Certainly full of it and all that, but not the life-partner for a quiet, retiring Drone like myself. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/43 "2006-05-04T01:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] Then there’s the lesbian subtexts, like Olivia being in love with Viola in Twelfth Night – not to mention the cross-dressing, with a boy-actor dressed as a woman dressed as a man. It’s a wonder the homophobe right allows this stuff to be taught in schools. [/QUOTE] You forgot the gay pirate Antonio, who is so in love with Sebastian that he goes into Illyria and gets himself arrested because he can’t stand to be away from his boy. It so glaringly obvious that he’s gay, but I was told I couldn’t teach that. I teach it anyway, with the proviso that it’s not a FACT, it’s just one possible (probable) interpretation of their relationship. All the kids are like, “Yeah, they’re gay, c’mon.” ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/44 "2006-05-04T01:20:06Z")
[QUOTE=Fabulous Creature] Watson gets married several times, if I recall aright, each time to a younger and prettier woman. He lives with Holmes **between** women. [/QUOTE] I can remember only one marriage - to Mary Morstan in _The SIgn of Four_. What were the others? ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/45 "2006-05-04T04:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=Bertie Wooster] Well, to be fair, it was Jeeves… [/QUOTE] Bertie! Where _is_ Jeeves? You know I just finished watching the second season of your show… ---
**Author:** ![Bertie\_Wooster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@Bertie\_Wooster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bertie_Wooster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/46 "2006-05-04T12:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=Kythereia] Bertie! Where _is_ Jeeves? You know I just finished watching the second season of your show… [/QUOTE] He’s gone to Herne Bay for the shrimping. Getting closer to topic, if you want gay subtext, try E W Hornung’s _Raffles: The Amateur Cracksman_. Whether intended by the author or not, the close relationship between the title character and “Bunny” Whatsisname is open to interpretations of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/47 "2006-05-04T12:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=Cunctator] I can remember only one marriage - to Mary Morstan in _The SIgn of Four_. What were the others? [/QUOTE] My memory is poor, but I believe that one of Watson’s wives passed away (if I recall, it was consumption or something like that) and eventually Watson remarries. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/48 "2006-05-04T13:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Khadaji] My memory is poor, but I believe that one of Watson’s wives passed away (if I recall, it was consumption or something like that) and eventually Watson remarries. [/QUOTE] Actually, I think what happened was that Doyle forgot that there had been a reference to the death of Watson’s wife in a previous story. Later mentions of her that implied she was still alive have been interpreted to mean that Watson remarried, but there’s no direct evidence of that in the texts. Doyle was pretty sloppy about the details of Watson’s personal life. His war injury, for example, kept moving around. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/49 "2006-05-04T14:18:07Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Actually, I think what happened was that Doyle forgot that there had been a reference to the death of Watson’s wife in a previous story. Later mentions of her that implied she was still alive have been interpreted to mean that Watson remarried, but there’s no direct evidence of that in the texts. Doyle was pretty sloppy about the details of Watson’s personal life. His war injury, for example, kept moving around. [/QUOTE] The reference is fairly vague: “…had heard of my own sad bereavement.” Some commentators on the Canon have said that Watson married once and once only (to the charming and refined Mary Morstan) and this line refers to a child who passed away in infancy. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/50 "2006-05-04T14:50:26Z")
Well, I always had my doubts about Batman and Robin. That always seemed kind of like classical Greece, if ya know what I mean … ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/51 "2006-05-04T15:03:33Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Well, I always had my doubts about Batman and Robin. That always seemed kind of like classical Greece, if ya know what I mean … [/QUOTE] You said it, Dr. Wertham! > **[The Ambiguously Gay Duo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguously_Gay_Duo)** > > The Ambiguously Gay Duo is an American animated comedy sketch that debuted on The Dana Carvey Show before moving to its permanent home on Saturday Night Live. It is created and produced by Robert Smigel and J. J. Sedelmaier as part of the Saturday TV Funhouse series of sketches. It follows the adventures of Ace and Gary, voiced by Stephen Colbert and Steve Carell, respectively, two superheroes whose sexual orientation is a matter of dispute, and a cavalcade of characters preoccupied with th The... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/52 "2006-05-04T15:09:34Z")
Is anyone here familiar with the Kipling source for Huston’s film “The Man Who Would Be King”? Because while there’s a few decidedly hetero story elements, there’s also something inherently suspect about a couple of blokes who decide to take on Afghanistan (and “brass it out” as divinities), while relying on nothing more than each other to cover their backs. That, and some of the film dialogue re. drilling men and evading the danger of an amorous young woman for the relative safety of the battlefield. Hijack: there was a true-life “TMWWBK” moment in the show “Going Tribal” on The Discovery Channel this week. The [white, male, British] adventurer was taking turns living amongst the tribes on Lake Rudolf’s northern shore, in an ungoverned area comprising bits of SE Sudan, SW Ethiopia, and NW Kenya. The first people they lived with seemed relatively nice and peaceful, except when they staged raids or fought back against their bitter enemy, the “Buma” people on the desertified side of a certain low mountain. Then the British guy goes to live amongst the bloodthirsty and sadistic Buma, and he asks the tribal leader about his neighbors. The much tattooed and scarified old man points to various points around his land and laments he is surrounded by “enemies there, and there, and over there… enemies all around” [!]. 😃 I wonder if that was an accurate translation, or if the translator was a fan of the Huston film and perhaps goosed the quote just a bit? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/53 "2006-05-04T15:18:09Z")
[QUOTE=The Scrivener] Is anyone here familiar with the Kipling source for Huston’s film “The Man Who Would Be King”? Because while there’s a few decidedly hetero story elements, there’s also something inherently suspect about a couple of blokes who decide to take on Afghanistan (and “brass it out” as divinities), while relying on nothing more than each other to cover their backs. That, and some of the film dialogue re. drilling men and evading the danger of an amorous young woman for the relative safety of the battlefield. [/quote] I don’t get that. You could say the same about practically any “buddy” adventure story. One of the reasons writers write such stories is that it’s more interesting than a solo adventurer; also gives you the chance to work in some stuff about friendship and loyalty. And military men are, well, used to the company of men; how else could it be? [QUOTE=The Scrivener] Hijack: there was a true-life “TMWWBK” moment in the show “Going Tribal” on The Discovery Channel this week. The [white, male, British] adventurer was taking turns living amongst the tribes on Lake Rudolf’s northern shore, in an ungoverned area comprising bits of SE Sudan, SW Ethiopia, and NW Kenya. The first people they lived with seemed relatively nice and peaceful, except when they staged raids or fought back against their bitter enemy, the “Buma” people on the desertified side of a certain low mountain. Then the British guy goes to live amongst the bloodthirsty and sadistic Buma, and he asks the tribal leader about his neighbors. The much tattooed and scarified old man points to various points around his land and laments he is surrounded by “enemies there, and there, and over there… enemies all around” [!]. 😃 I wonder if that was an accurate translation, or if the translator was a fan of the Huston film and perhaps goosed the quote just a bit? [/QUOTE] Chief knew quote! You not know? Buma people big classic-film geeks. Buma live by raiding, goatherding, and summer stock work. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/54 "2006-05-05T14:58:22Z")
To the OP: Archie & Jughead! sorry…filing comics last night at bookstore. couldn’t resist. and of course there’s spongebob, but I don’t think he’s a classic yet. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/55 "2006-05-05T19:00:54Z")
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a large fortune must be gay. (Mr Darcy Takes A Wife is horrible, but amusing. I really don’t want to think about Mr. Darcy having a throbbing member. I only managed about 100 pages before horrible overwhelmed amusing). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/56 "2006-05-06T20:31:34Z")
Holmes and Watson? Subtext? I thought it was pretty obvious. “Holmes”, pronounced “homes”, short for “homos”. Watson = “What’s on?” - a blatant gay reference. [QUOTE=well he’s back] To the OP: Archie & Jughead! sorry…filing comics last night at bookstore. couldn’t resist. [/QUOTE] Reggie was practically flaming. And Veronica, though stylish and beautiful, always seemed a little butch. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155/57 "2006-05-06T20:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=well he’s back] To the OP: Archie & Jughead! [/QUOTE] What about Moose and Dilton? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uncovering-gay-subtext-in-classics-probable-open-spoilers/355155.md?page=2)