# Undeniably talented artists/performers who are also, undeniably, horrible people. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283 "2014-12-27T16:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/222 "2015-01-03T03:53:53Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > That’s some very loose definition of the term “war criminal.” You cheapen the word by your use of it to the point where it’s meaningless and every world leader who ever committed troops to a military venture is now a war criminal. No, not necessarily _every_ world leader, though frankly the entire history of the world is filled with ordinary people killing one another at the behest and whims of their so-called “leaders.” The rationales, conduct, and results of the ventures I mention are completely in keeping with a definition of war crimes, assuming you hold to the universality of ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/223 "2015-01-03T04:09:43Z")
Just to hopefully preempt a long and winding hijack: General Paul Gorman freely admitted in 1986 that Nicaragua was no danger to the US. Even if the worst turned out to be true and Nicaragua did become some kind of base for the Warsaw Pact (which it was not; the FSLN had an ideologically awkward relationship with Moscow, and over in El Salvador, the FMLN accurately characterized the USSR’s government as imperialist), the US military could rapidly eliminate the threat, such as it was. That would probably not be a war crime, if the threat was genuine, and assuming the focus was on the military capability. For Clinton,[do you have any idea what happened in Iraq during the 1990s?](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n14/andrew-cockburn/worth-it) Bush I started that phase (though the US has been messing with Iraq for generations) and Bush II finished it, but Clinton was responsible for a truly mind-bogglingly cruel regime of sanctions and bombing. Of course, he’s not an undeniably great artist, so I just threw him in because people always think this kind of thing is partisan, i.e. “You’re just disagreeing with Reagan’s politics!” ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/224 "2015-01-03T05:01:48Z")
People, if you want to argue about politics, please take it to GD. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/225 "2015-01-03T05:01:48Z")
[Eric Clapton](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_Clapton). What a douchebag. Here is the guitar “god” speaking onstage in 1976: > [@](#): > > Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands. Wogs I mean, I’m looking at you. Where are you? I’m sorry but some fucking wog…Arab grabbed my wife’s bum, you know? Surely got to be said, yeah this is what all the fucking foreigners and wogs over here are like, just disgusting, that’s just the truth, yeah. So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country. You fucking (indecipherable). I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should vote for Enoch Powell. Enoch’s our man. I think Enoch’s right, I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white. I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. Fucking wogs, man. Fucking Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and fucking Jamaicans and fucking (indecipherable) don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man. We are a white country. I don’t want fucking wogs living next to me with their standards. This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for fuck’s sake? We need to vote for Enoch Powell, he’s a great man, speaking truth. Vote for Enoch, he’s our man, he’s on our side, he’ll look after us. I want all of you here to vote for Enoch, support him, he’s on our side. Enoch for Prime Minister! Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white! In a 2004 interview in Uncut Magazine, he claimed that Enoch Powerll was “outrageously brave.” On the South Bank Show in 2007, Clapton stated that Powell’s views were not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/226 "2015-01-03T06:00:07Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > [Eric Clapton](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_Clapton). > > What a douchebag. Here is the guitar “god” speaking onstage in 1976: :eek: ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/227 "2015-01-03T13:00:09Z")
That blows me away! Clapton has spent his whole life worshipping Delta Blues and Chicago Blues-Rock pioneers…yet he has wished for an all-white England? Weird. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/228 "2015-01-03T16:27:04Z")
I was just about to post about Clapton. Just came across the same factoid on Reddit. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/229 "2015-01-03T17:20:47Z")
Speaking of Clapton, hasn’t **Morrissey** also made some racially-charged, nationalistic remarks See also, [Bengali in Platforms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qTY6-xKHpM). ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/230 "2015-01-03T18:03:10Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > No, not necessarily _every_ world leader, though frankly the entire history of the world is filled with ordinary people killing one another at the behest and whims of their so-called “leaders.” The rationales, conduct, and results of the ventures I mention are completely in keeping with a definition of war crimes, assuming you hold to the universality of ethics. Like I said, you make the word meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/231 "2015-01-03T18:27:18Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Speaking of Clapton, hasn’t **Morrissey** also made some racially-charged, nationalistic remarks > > See also, [Bengali in Platforms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qTY6-xKHpM). Yes, but it was nowhere near what Clapton said. Moz basically commented on the psychological effects of England becoming less English. Songs like the one you mention are said to be in character, rather than personal sentiments, like some of the examples mentioned earlier. > [@RikWriter](#): > > Like I said, you make the word meaningless. Or perhaps the widespread aptness of the label has some pretty profound implications. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/232 "2015-01-03T19:31:08Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Or perhaps the widespread aptness of the label has some pretty profound implications. Yeah, I suppose that’s possible, but it’s more likely you’re misusing the word. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/233 "2015-01-03T20:29:40Z")
> [@Idilia\_Dubb](#): > > Oscar Wilde treated his loving wife and two small children with callous disdain, abandoning his family and lavishing all of his own money and much of his wife’s on the grasping catamite, Alfred Douglas. Wilde left his wife and two boys emotionally bereft and fiscally bankrupt. When he was offered the chance to escape from England with some of his and his family’s dignity still intact, he declined. He gave histrionic performances at his trials and perjured himself in a fruitless effort to prove his devotion to that rotter Douglas. He only succeeded in ruining himself, his wife, sons and widowed mother. It’s a tragic story. Wilde is venerated today as the great British martyr of the gay cause but he was in reality an obsessed, pigheaded fool. Being a pigheaded fool doesn’t make you a ‘horrible person’. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/234 "2015-01-03T20:35:19Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > . . . All of them? Seriously, it would make more sense to list artists I admire who are also genuinely good people. > > Just to throw out a few random examples: for almost all his life, John Lennon was a world class ass - violent, jealous, you name it. T.S. Eliot, perhaps my favorite poet, was an anti-Semite. Bob Dylan would belittle fellow folk artists who weren’t as talented as him, suggesting they change careers. George Orwell was likely a misogynist. Pablo Casals married a 20-year-old . . . when he was 80. Chuck Berry was indicated in possibly sexually assaulting a 14-year-old. The term “anti-Semite” doesn’t do Wagner justice; he was basically a pre-Nazi. Beethoven would throw instruments, chairs, and his baton at orchestra members. > > The list goes on. I’ve basically accepted that I will consume creative people’s work, enjoy it, and admire them for being good at composing/writing/painting/whatever; but extreme talent in that field is no reflection on their goodness as a human being. And that’s OK. Just because I like reading a guy’s book doesn’t mean he should be my idol. People are people. As long as it’s not a case like the lovely Orson Scott Card, where buying his products with help further his agenda, I try not to care about the personal views of celebrities. I don’t really see where Pablo Casals or Bob Dylan did anything wrong here. A 20-year old is over the age of consent, so there’s nothing wrong with marrying someone much older. As for Bob Dylan, maybe many of those musicians really _weren’t_ good enough to make it in the music world, and the sooner they learned that the better (for them, and for their careers). There are way too many people who try to be commercially successful musicians, and harsh criticism is sometimes the best way to learn. I certainly agree with you about Wagner and (assuming the accusations were true) Chuck Berry. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/235 "2015-01-03T20:36:43Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Reagan was a war criminal, in case turning Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, and (to a lesser extent) Honduras into killing fields bothers you. There’s also the matter of Angola, cozying up to the Argentine generals (Kirkpatrick and Haig wanted the US to support them in the Falklands), supporting the Khmer Rouge to get back at Vietnam, South Africa, criminal inaction re: AIDS (despite opposing homophobic ballot measures in the past), claiming that the Americans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade fought on the wrong side of the Spanish Civil War, Bitburg, kickstarting the neoliberalism that continues to erode the middle class, contributing to the disassembly of Yugoslavia, and so much more. While every one of your criticisms of Mr. Reagan is accurate, does he really count as a ‘talented performer’? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/236 "2015-01-03T21:12:37Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > That blows me away! Clapton has spent his whole life worshipping Delta Blues and Chicago Blues-Rock pioneers…yet he has wished for an all-white England? Weird. Putting the racism issue aside for a moment: After reading biographical articles about EC, including statements he’s made to interviewers, I came away with the impression that emotionally he’s an extremely shallow person. Nothing that I’d call “horrible” but definitely not someone I’d want to be close to. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/237 "2015-01-03T21:23:25Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > While every one of your criticisms of Mr. Reagan is accurate, does he really count as a ‘talented performer’? IMO his one undeniable talent was portraying a genial, avuncular Master Of Ceremonies, in both Entertainment and (especially) Political arenas. Of course, the “Ronald Reagan” character was also narrow-minded, unintelligent, and borderline delusional/senile, even while in the White House, but none of those aspects required any acting talent. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/238 "2015-01-03T22:22:52Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Frank Zappa is undoubtedly one of the most talented and brilliant musicians ever to work in rock music - but I’ve never seen him in anything that didn’t suggest he was a snotty, self-absorbed, loud-mouthed prick. From interviews I’ve read, Zappa’s sidemen generally speak fondly of their time in his band and unless everybody’s hiding something he was adored by his family. That’s not to say there aren’t things to dislike about Zappa but there doesn’t seem to be any shortage of people who deeply cared for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/239 "2015-01-03T22:44:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I was just about to post about Clapton. Just came across the same factoid on Reddit. Unbelievable. That’s where I saw it, and I can’t believe I never heard about it before. The sheer, unmitigated gall. Two years after covering Bob Marley’s _I Shot the Sherriff_, his only number 1 single (U.S.), he’s screaming about “fucking Jamaicans” on stage. I’m glad I’m not really a fan, despite liking a few songs. It’s telling that he never apologized or tried to explain away (I was drunk) those comments. ---
**Author:** ![Idilia\_Dubb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@Idilia\_Dubb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idilia_Dubb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/240 "2015-01-04T16:29:08Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Being a pigheaded fool doesn’t make you a ‘horrible person’. So let’s review, **Hector.** Wilde … committed adultery was a spendthrift who bankrupted his family abandoned his wife abandoned his sons insisted on avoidable legal proceedings that socially ruined his family (They had to change their name, so deep was the opprobrium he visited upon them.) committed perjury in the dock. If that doesn’t qualify as horrible, **Hector** , kindly tell me what is. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/241 "2015-01-04T16:58:30Z")
I’ve read pretty bad homophobic stuff from Orson Scott Card before, but the rounding up in concentration camps I hadn’t encountered. I see references to it online, but am having trouble tracking down the quote. Anyone know where it can be found? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=13)