# Undeniably talented artists/performers who are also, undeniably, horrible people. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283 "2014-12-27T16:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/81 "2014-12-27T21:14:18Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Alton Brown is reportedly a massive jerk and there are reports of him being [a racist and homophone](https://cleanplatter.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/the-taste-of-disillusionment/) as well. > [@mhendo](#): > > A homophone? That sounds familiar. 😃 This should not have passed without applause! [QUOTE=an earlier poster] _(comparison of Hitler with Thomas Kinkade)_ [/QUOTE] > [@Peremensoe](#): > > That fascist asshole was certainly a terrible person, but his art was awful crap too, so no good for the “undeniable talent” requested here. > Same goes for Hitler. This, either! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/82 "2014-12-27T21:27:09Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Yeah, my story about Stills being a weenie to Paul is small beans - sorry. I use it as shorthand in my own mind about how full of himself he had become. > > I started a thread about how CSN are the acoustic Motley Crue here: [Because CSN are basically the acoustic Motley Crue, that's why - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730455) > > There’s a bit of Stills’ yukkiness in there… I’ve been reading the Neil Young biography _Shakey_. I’d place Young high up in any hierarchy of assholism. Along with about 50 of his closest friends and associates. He comes across in the book as an immense talent with a Steve Jobs-like reality distortion field. Anybody who doesn’t view the world in the way Young was viewing it at any given moment gets stomped on. Lots of others assholes fit in, though, from time to time. That doesn’t excuse the drug-fueled assholery of Stills and Crosby (until they cleaned up) one bit. But Young never should have joined them; he hurt them in a million ways. Isaac Asimov’s reputation has taken a huge hit in recent years as stories of his groping women at cons have spread. Randall Garrett was apparently similar to Me-Lay Marston of M_A_S\*H (the one who went up to every woman he encountered and said “Me lay. You lay?”) John W. Campbell eventually alienated everyone except for a handful of core acolytes and sometimes them. Much like Ayn Rand. I’m not going to mention names, but I’ve given up on [del]some[/del] SF forums online because they are dominated by assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/83 "2014-12-27T21:30:30Z")
[Mao was a poet, though his talent is far from undeniable.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=677710) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/84 "2014-12-27T21:45:01Z")
Some people believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley is a talented artist because of “The Mists of Avalon.” [But what’s undeniable](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley#Child_sex_abuse_allegations)is that she enabled her husband Donald Breen, a convicted pedophile, in his pedophilia, and that her daughter claims that Ms. Bradley molested her as a child. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/85 "2014-12-27T22:02:21Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > This is the abbreviated version, inasmuch as I am at work right now. > > In 2005, at Live 8 (“The Day the Music Failed”), Bono and Geldof apparently had a policy that they didn’t want anybody to criticize Bush or Blair from the stage. By itself, that doesn’t mean much, but it illustrates a much larger point about those two musicians/activists. They seem to believe, and worse, perpetuate, this idea that much of the trouble in the world is just an accident of fate, or it’s the work of marginal rogues, and surely responsibility couldn’t lie with the actions of the most powerful people and institutions in the world. > > This serves to deflect so much potentially revolutionary effort into a direction that isn’t even really tepid reformism. It accomplishes nothing much, is a tremendous waste, and, I fear, makes the “Overton Window” even narrower. > > At least with bullies like Gene Simmons and Ted Nugent, who kiss up to power and privilege and scorn all those who lack such privilege, you know where you stand. I want to believe that Bono and Geldof have good intentions, but I wonder if they are delusional. Bono has praised Noam Chomsky, and has (I think) gotten to know the members of Rage Against the Machine, and yet he acts to effectively hamstring the possibility of dismantling the institutions that such folks rage against. Wow. Just…wow. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/86 "2014-12-27T22:06:42Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > If I recall, Geldof and Bush worked closely to bring historic amounts of food and support to Africa. I can understand if Geldof didn’t want to be associated with attacking Bush, given their relationship. To the extent that that’s true, it was undone in a big way by things like the episode at the end of 2006 when the Bushies cajoled their cronies in Ethiopia into invading Somalia. That’s far from the only example. > [@RikWriter](#): > > Wow. Just…wow. Yeah, mind-blowing, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Idilia\_Dubb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@Idilia\_Dubb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idilia_Dubb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/87 "2014-12-27T23:31:04Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by Idilia Dubb View Post Mozart was an immature jerk with a scatology fetish. > [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > **Mozart** > Is this historical fact? I know it’s how he was depicted in _Amadeus_, but as I understand it that film plays _very_ fast and loose with the facts. Not challenging you- I’m genuinely curious. Oh, go ahead and challenge me. I’m a newbie but I can take it. 😛 Mozart wrote a series of salacious letters to his girl cousin. The most notorious is excerpted here: > **[Dirty Flirting With Young Mozart](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mozart-dirty-letters_n_1651332)** > > Dirty Flirting With Young Mozart His coprophilia is well documented. Just google “Mozart scatology” and you’ll find lots of material. The letters to his cousin are excruciating to read. All I think of to say in his defense is that Lil Wolfie was the 18th-century version of a child star and child stars, as we know, seldom turn out well. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/88 "2014-12-27T23:36:23Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Yeah, mind-blowing, isn’t it? Yes, your way of thinking does blow my mind. I’ve encountered it before and it never fails to amaze me. I hope you’re young. If you’re still young, then there’s still time. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/89 "2014-12-27T23:40:36Z")
It’s been common knowledge for decades that the original members of Motley Crue have always been some of the biggest jerks on the planet, but after finally reading their group autobiography “The Dirt” a couple years ago, I just feel sorry for them. At least two of them (Vince and Nikki) clearly suffered horrific child abuse - physical and mental, and probably sexual too. Mickey Mantle was not a nice guy, either. (Massive understatement) If you extend this out a little further, the groundbreaking transplant surgeons Christiaan Barnard and C. Walton Lillehei were sociopaths extraordinaire. Both of them could have been Dr. Swangos had things gone a bit differently. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/90 "2014-12-27T23:41:13Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Yes, your way of thinking does blow my mind. I’ve encountered it before and it never fails to amaze me. I hope you’re young. If you’re still young, then there’s still time. I’m 32. Elaborate. What do you mean? Geldof and Bono need a good dose of David Rovics: [“The banks were bailed out while the people had to pay But in Iceland people thought there must be a better way And the Earth stood still a moment, fear was struck in every toff When Iceland told the bankers to fuck off”](http://davidrovics.bandcamp.com/track/iceland-2008) ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/91 "2014-12-28T00:13:52Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I’m 32. > > Elaborate. What do you mean? I mean that there might still be hope that someday you’ll develop a good dose of perspective. The fact you believe something fiercely doesn’t mean it’s true. The fact that you believe something fiercely doesn’t mean that people who don’t agree with your beliefs are bad people or stupid people. Or even mistaken people. You might be wrong. That’s the thing that takes the longest to realize, the last sign of being an adult: the realization that you might be wrong. Realizing that makes it much harder to vilify people with whom you disagree. It took me into my mid 30s to come to that realization, so maybe you’ll do the same. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/92 "2014-12-28T00:20:06Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > What came to mind was this semi-viral email that went around in 2001, in which he unleashed lots of reactionary, disingenuous stuff. Again, it isn’t just a theoretical political argument. These kinds of things have real-world consequences. “semi-viral?” is this one of those “viral” emails which “quote” celebrities yet are complete bullshit? Like the George Carlin “I’m a bad American” lists which weren’t anything he actually said? ---
**Author:** ![Idilia\_Dubb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@Idilia\_Dubb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idilia_Dubb)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/93 "2014-12-28T00:24:17Z")
Oscar Wilde treated his loving wife and two small children with callous disdain, abandoning his family and lavishing all of his own money and much of his wife’s on the grasping catamite, Alfred Douglas. Wilde left his wife and two boys emotionally bereft and fiscally bankrupt. When he was offered the chance to escape from England with some of his and his family’s dignity still intact, he declined. He gave histrionic performances at his trials and perjured himself in a fruitless effort to prove his devotion to that rotter Douglas. He only succeeded in ruining himself, his wife, sons and widowed mother. It’s a tragic story. Wilde is venerated today as the great British martyr of the gay cause but he was in reality an obsessed, pigheaded fool. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/94 "2014-12-28T00:31:00Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > “semi-viral?” is this one of those “viral” emails which “quote” celebrities yet are complete bullshit? Like the George Carlin “I’m a bad American” lists which weren’t anything he actually said? I’m actually pretty curious about that. Although I wouldn’t put it past him, based on such things as the transition he made from civil rights activist to defender of privilege, complaining about the phantom specter of “reverse discrimination” and other such nonsense. As soon as the tide started to turn, and people like that started to see privilege as a zero-sum game in which they were losing out, they started complaining about “political correctness” and so on. Yeah, that’s pretty horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/95 "2014-12-28T00:31:30Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > If you extend this out a little further, the groundbreaking transplant surgeons Christiaan Barnard and C. Walton Lillehei were sociopaths extraordinaire. Both of them could have been Dr. Swangos had things gone a bit differently. I’ve heard it said that the difference between God and a cardiologist is that God never thinks he’s a cardiologist. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/96 "2014-12-28T00:34:00Z")
> [@Idilia\_Dubb](#): > > Oscar Wilde treated his loving wife and two small children with callous disdain, abandoning his family and lavishing all of his own money and much of his wife’s on the grasping catamite, Alfred Douglas. Wilde left his wife and two boys emotionally bereft and fiscally bankrupt. When he was offered the chance to escape from England with some of his and his family’s dignity still intact, he declined. He gave histrionic performances at his trials and perjured himself in a fruitless effort to prove his devotion to that rotter Douglas. He only succeeded in ruining himself, his wife, sons and widowed mother. It’s a tragic story. Wilde is venerated today as the great British martyr of the gay cause but he was in reality an obsessed, pigheaded fool. This sounds an awful lot like Frank Lloyd Wright, too. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/97 "2014-12-28T00:35:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’ve heard it said that the difference between God and a cardiologist is that God never thinks he’s a cardiologist. Yep. I’ve also heard more than once, from more than one person, that this is one occupation whose practitioners, male or female, should not have children. Get married, sure, but don’t have kids. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/98 "2014-12-28T00:37:38Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I mean that there might still be hope that someday you’ll develop a good dose of perspective. The fact you believe something fiercely doesn’t mean it’s true. The fact that you believe something fiercely doesn’t mean that people who don’t agree with your beliefs are bad people or stupid people. Or even mistaken people. You might be wrong. That’s the thing that takes the longest to realize, the last sign of being an adult: the realization that you might be wrong. Realizing that makes it much harder to vilify people with whom you disagree. It took me into my mid 30s to come to that realization, so maybe you’ll do the same. I know that. I try not to have beliefs; instead, I look for facts and empirical evidence, even when they force me to take a long hard look at my own privilege and position, and the actions taken by those who claim to represent me. Those who disagree are not necessarily bad or stupid, and I gave a few examples above. They might indeed be mistaken. Of course I can be wrong. I take a look at times when I have been, and I try to learn from them. I also look back with satisfaction at all the times I’ve been right. The important thing is, these are not academic exercises. There’s plenty of room for vilification where it’s appropriate, and no, not when it’s a simple matter of disagreement. Criminality on a grand scale deserves vilification. ---
**Author:** ![Idilia\_Dubb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@Idilia\_Dubb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idilia_Dubb)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/99 "2014-12-28T00:40:54Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > This sounds an awful lot like Frank Lloyd Wright, too. Wright was a bastard to his family? Tell us more. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/100 "2014-12-28T00:41:49Z")
Bing Crosby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=6)