# Undeniably talented artists/performers who are also, undeniably, horrible people. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283 "2014-12-27T16:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/141 "2014-12-28T15:53:34Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Yo! Everyone who’s making personal remarks about each other – knock it off now. If you want to make it about each other, take it to the Pit. > > I’m not going to call everyone out by name – but if you’re thinking “she couldn’t _possibly_ be talking about me, because I’m just [whatever]” – yeah, you too, knock it off. > > **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator I was wondering how long it would take before we got a “You kids knock it off in there!!” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/142 "2014-12-28T19:18:35Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > We’re not talking about ‘anything’. We’re talking about current (at the time ) hot-button topics. You think polls flipped around in support of gay marriage and Indian mascots are becoming out of vogue because we live in more enlightened times? No. It took years of being steeped in the atmosphere we have today. I’m really having trouble following your argument(s). I don’t think it’s any more difficult today to stay “steeped in your own prejudices” than it was in any prior era - for all the flood of info the webz represent, most people are quite selective about what they read, retain, believe and absorb. If anything, it might be a little easier today because almost any viewpoint, no matter how weird or reprehensible, can find support and co-believers. Again, it’s possible Heston was utterly self-absorbed and cocooned in his beliefs and no amount of info-amazon would have changed it, but I still disagree that there’s a vast gulf in the information availability between 1999 and today. It just wasn’t at the quick rattle of a keyboard phrase then. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/143 "2014-12-28T20:38:27Z")
Sheesh - all that ragging on Charlton Heston, and not a word said about another well-known performer\* and NRA spokesman who’s not exactly [the nicest of people](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ted-nugent-obama-hillary-clint-chimpanzee)? \*the “undeniable talent” part might be controversial for some, but he’s had memorable output. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/144 "2014-12-28T21:59:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Sheesh - all that ragging on Charlton Heston, and not a word said about another well-known performer\* and NRA spokesman who’s not exactly [the nicest of people](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ted-nugent-obama-hillary-clint-chimpanzee)? > > \*the “undeniable talent” part might be controversial for some, but he’s had memorable output. It’s only a word said, but check post #71. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/145 "2014-12-28T22:09:38Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Johnny Carson was reported a cold, standoffish prick offstage, as well as being a notorious womanizer. He was also a really bad alcoholic, although he performed drunk very few times. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/146 "2014-12-28T22:18:08Z")
A folk singer named Jill Sobule did a song on exactly this topic - Why are all our heroes so imperfect Why do they always bring me down Why are all our heroes so imperfect The statue in the park has lost his crown [snipped excess lyrics] I have heard jaw dropping stories from friends (in the hotel business) about Prince and Kurt Cobain. A close relative worked on the private jets owned by several celebrities. He said that they were very kind, always had a smile… except for James Brown. Apparently, he’s a guy with lots of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/147 "2014-12-28T22:23:20Z")
Could I suggest celebrity sweary chef Gordon Ramsay. Undeniably a top-flight chef, but according to the tv and tattle mags a real Kyle Sandilands\* in the kitchen. The Hell’s Kitchen type shoutiness is apparently not reserved for when the camera are on. - Australian substitute for the offensive term for female genitalia. Replaces the older Sam Newman. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/148 "2014-12-28T23:38:14Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > “she couldn’t _possibly_ be talking about me, because I’m just [whatever]” talkin’ 'bout Shaft? Damn straight. No, actually, I’ve heard Richard Roundtree is a pretty nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/149 "2014-12-29T00:44:18Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > That Hitler fellow did a few nice paintings along the lines of Thomas Kinkade. > > StG But performance art was his forte. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/150 "2014-12-29T01:04:01Z")
I have heard bad things about Mariah Carey (IIRC it was a flying magazine in an article on pilots who fly celebrities ) [http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2005/March/1/Keeping-the-Client-Happy](http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2005/March/1/Keeping-the-Client-Happy) Brian ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/151 "2014-12-29T01:41:26Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > A folk singer named Jill Sobule did a song on exactly this topic - > > Why are all our heroes so imperfect > Why do they always bring me down > Why are all our heroes so imperfect > The statue in the park has lost his crown > > … > > _The founding fathers all had slaves_ That’s incorrect. Not _all_ the founding fathers had slaves. John Adams and Ben Franklin, for example, didn’t. (Adams, in particular, opposed slavery his entire life and called it a “foul contagion in the human character” and “an evil of colossal magnitude.”) Of course, Adams was an arrogant little prick who tried to jail his political enemies when he was president and Franklin was a shameless libertine with an inexplicable prejudice toward German immigrants so there are other reasons to trash them and their legacy. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/152 "2014-12-29T02:03:09Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > It’s been common knowledge for decades that the original members of Motley Crue have always been some of the biggest jerks on the planet, but after finally reading their group autobiography “The Dirt” a couple years ago, I just feel sorry for them. At least two of them (Vince and Nikki) clearly suffered horrific child abuse - physical and mental, and probably sexual too. > > Mickey Mantle was not a nice guy, either. (Massive understatement) > > If you extend this out a little further, the groundbreaking transplant surgeons Christiaan Barnard and C. Walton Lillehei were sociopaths extraordinaire. Both of them could have been Dr. Swangos had things gone a bit differently. Barnard’s Wiki bio seems to indicate he was a player with several marriages but otherwise it seems a fairly upright life. He was a strong opponent of apartheid which was a courageous stance to take for South African and his later year included charitable work. > [@](#): > > Barnard divided the remainder of his years between Austria, where he established the Christiaan Barnard Foundation, dedicated to helping underprivileged children throughout the world, and his game farm in Beaufort West, South Africa. Where do you get the “sociopath” connotation? ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/153 "2014-12-29T04:39:27Z")
Prince? I kid I kid. Anyone mention OJ Simpson yet? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/154 "2014-12-29T05:11:57Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > When I wa,s a kid, my father told a story about what an asshole Jerry Lewis was. When I was a kid I loved Jerry Lewis. I have a specific memory of watching and immensely enjoying him on TV when I was eleven (1961). No other specific memories, but by the time I was in High School I “knew” he was an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/155 "2014-12-29T05:17:51Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > I don’t follow this. Jimmy Stewart was gay or had a problem with someone who was? Shame on him if it’s true. > > I will say that I met him at charity functions in LA. He was a gentleman to me. He once told Betty White to sit down and be quiet, when she was babbling drunkenly while I was giving a talk. He said it in his own inimitable way, of course. 😃 Even now, I would like to spend time with a drunken Betty White. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/156 "2014-12-29T05:53:29Z")
Warren Zevon was extremely talented, but by most accounts he was also a total pain in the ass. I’m not sure I would call him a horrible person, but he had a lot of mental issues and demons he wrestled with. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/157 "2014-12-29T06:56:47Z")
> [@Idilia\_Dubb](#): > > Mozart was an immature jerk with a scatology fetish. Holy shit! > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Our 15 year old daughter is a huge Beatles fan. And she says **John Lennon** was a total jerk. Imagine. Adding to this list: Barry Bonds. I’m 53 and so far he’s the greatest talent I’ve seen on a baseball field. He’s well-known for being a jerk but a friend of mine told me about asking for his autograph, years ago, that really takes the cake. Bonds actually signed, which is surprising enough, but here’s how he did it. My friend was with his little boy who had a glove that had some autographs on it. After a game in St. Louis one day (where they live) they asked Barry to sign it. Barry looked at the glove, saw the autographs already there, noticed Bobby Bonilla’s autograph, _ **and then he signed right on top of Bonilla’s autograph, basically scribbling it away** _. Right in front of my friend and his son. WHAT A DICK. Barry I hope you read this, you asshole. And if you’re here, I’ll take you to The Pit where I’ll heap more burning coals onto your head. The SF Giants are trying, gingerly, to establish a public relationship with Bonds. Good luck. Signed, A long-time Giants fan ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/158 "2014-12-29T08:41:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I’ve heard from multiple independent sources that Charles Barkley is a giant prick to waitstaff, it is basically well known in Houston. I have never waited on him but have watched him at the blackjack table and he is one of the nicest and most generous people I have seen. I have also heard that he has been known to chide fellow Hall of Famer Michael Jordan for not tipping. I can’t imagine that he is a difficult customer in restaurants unless you don’t bring his meal quickly enough. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/159 "2014-12-29T12:34:27Z")
**DrForrester** , instead of quoting lyrics (or any copyrighted material) in their entirety, pls. provide a link to where they’re posted elsewhere. Thanks, **twicks** ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/160 "2014-12-29T12:54:02Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > That’s incorrect. Not _all_ the founding fathers had slaves. John Adams and Ben Franklin, for example, didn’t. (Adams, in particular, opposed slavery his entire life and called it a “foul contagion in the human character” and “an evil of colossal magnitude.”) Of course, Adams was an arrogant little prick who tried to jail his political enemies when he was president and Franklin was a shameless libertine with an inexplicable prejudice toward German immigrants so there are other reasons to trash them and their legacy. Which reminds me. George Orwell was described as having a dislike of Scotsmen(and Jews _may_ have been included in this dislike). Many of these “undeniably horrible people” had in fact mere human foibles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=9)