# Undeniably talented artists/performers who are also, undeniably, horrible people. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283 "2014-12-27T16:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/161 "2014-12-29T15:47:11Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Holy shit! > > Imagine. > Adding to this list: Barry Bonds. > > I’m 53 and so far he’s the greatest talent I’ve seen on a baseball field. He’s well-known for being a jerk but a friend of mine told me about asking for his autograph, years ago, that really takes the cake. Bonds actually signed, which is surprising enough, but here’s how he did it. My friend was with his little boy who had a glove that had some autographs on it. After a game in St. Louis one day (where they live) they asked Barry to sign it. Barry looked at the glove, saw the autographs already there, noticed Bobby Bonilla’s autograph, _ **and then he signed right on top of Bonilla’s autograph, basically scribbling it away** _. Right in front of my friend and his son. > > WHAT A DICK. Barry I hope you read this, you asshole. And if you’re here, I’ll take you to The Pit where I’ll heap more burning coals onto your head. > > The SF Giants are trying, gingerly, to establish a public relationship with Bonds. Good luck. > > Signed, > A long-time Giants fan OH, but c’mon. You and your kid got a great story out of it! “And thissss…is my combo Bonilla-Bonds autograph. You can see where Bonds intentionally signed over it.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/162 "2014-12-30T02:45:02Z")
> [@Idilia\_Dubb](#): > > Mozart wrote a series of salacious letters to his girl cousin. The most notorious is excerpted here: > [Mozart's Dirty Love Letter To His Cousin: 'Oh My Ass Burns Like Fire!' | HuffPost Culture](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/05/mozart-dirty-letters_n_1651332.html) > > His coprophilia is well documented. Just google “Mozart scatology” and you’ll find lots of material. The letters to his cousin are excruciating to read. All I think of to say in his defense is that Lil Wolfie was the 18th-century version of a child star and child stars, as we know, seldom turn out well. Well, here we’re bumping up against creepiness to us vs cultural norms for them. Mozart was, like Hitler, an Austrian, and therefore inordinately, to us, obsessed with bowel movements, his own and those of others. Even moreso than Germans. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/163 "2014-12-30T03:20:11Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > That Hitler fellow did a few nice paintings along the lines of Thomas Kinkade. > > StG You bastard. Now I’m picturing Hitler painting Dachau in the Kindade style. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/164 "2014-12-30T05:59:36Z")
**Miles Davis** , maybe. I don’t know enough to know if he was an asshole generally, but he sure did harbor a lot of racial hostility: “If somebody told me I had only one hour to live, I’d spend it choking a white man. I’d do it nice and slow.” _Miles Davis Can’t Shake Boyhood Racial Abuse_, Jet March 25, 1985. ---
**Author:** ![Idilia\_Dubb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@Idilia\_Dubb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idilia_Dubb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/165 "2014-12-30T09:05:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You bastard. Now I’m picturing Hitler painting Dachau in the Kindade style. :eek: **Chimera** , the Dachau Lager is located on the outskirts of a pleasant small town that has some pretty houses in it. I could totally see Kincade painting it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/166 "2014-12-30T17:36:26Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Adding to this list: Barry Bonds. Wow, did this take too long to get posted. Maybe it’s a sign we’re forgetting him. The recent retirement of Derek Jeter was such a bittersweet moment, involving one of the most gracious and upstanding athletes of our generation, and it shows how true greatness as an athlete and a human being need not be exclusive. Then there’s Barry… possibly one of the most gifted players to ever don spikes, and a complete, thorough, unpleasant, demanding, egotistical asshole I wouldn’t ask for an autograph if he knocked on my door. …and that comes from a Yankee-hater for many reasons including a whole family of generational die-hard BoSox in-laws, and a third-generation Giants fan. Go figger. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/167 "2014-12-30T18:14:24Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow, did this take too long to get posted. Maybe it’s a sign we’re forgetting him. Well, it could also be that baseball players aren’t generally thought of as artists/performers (although I can see the argument being made for a very wide definition of the latter.) Love that Bonilla/Bonds story. Hell, to me it makes it all the more valuable in my eyes with the story that goes with it. It’s not just another run-of-the-mill autograph. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/168 "2014-12-30T18:16:19Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow, did this take too long to get posted. Maybe it’s a sign we’re forgetting him. Dangit, I _had_ until this thread came along. To the list, I’ll add Ginger Baker. I’d listen to his records with you all day long. I would not ever want to have been in a band with him. Just watch the trailer for [Beware Mister Baker](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5seWMYG9kk), and tell me you’d be comfy. I’m OK with any level of art discourse until we’ve reached simple assault. Mark E. Smith is also a guy who umm, has had his moments. Both absolute genius and absolute madman. Abrasive is his modus operandi. ETA: And it actually makes me sad to add this name, because he is truly so great to me. Charles Mingus was a mercurial bastard at best. But much like Mr. Smith, even after he had his flame-out with people, they were still usually happy to have worked with a genius. And not to sound to nannyish to anyone but myself, but I feel kind of ashamed for participating in this thread. Those guys are all heroes of mine. It’s my problem, not yours, but I wanted to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/169 "2014-12-30T18:27:43Z")
Wait, to clarify: Barry Bonds isn’t a hero of mine. (wipes brow) ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/170 "2014-12-30T18:55:04Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > To the list, I’ll add Ginger Baker. I’d listen to his records with you all day long. I would not ever want to have been in a band with him. Just watch the trailer for [Beware Mister Baker](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5seWMYG9kk), and tell me you’d be comfy. I’m OK with any level of art discourse until we’ve reached simple assault. To be fair, Ginger Baker lived in Parker, Colorado from 1993 to 1996 and by all accounts was popular with the locals. He participated in polo matches at the Salisbury Equestrian Park and sponsored jam sessions and concerts on the weekends. When Ringo Starr brought his All-Starr Band to Red Rocks, Baker was welcomed on stage and jammed on a few Cream songs with Jack Bruce. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/171 "2014-12-30T20:58:51Z")
Post #72 made me piss my pants laughing! ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/172 "2014-12-30T21:10:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Oh, and Michael Minkler. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > The Oscar remarks? I think that was meant to be a sort of collegial ribbing that got away from him. Yeah, well his actions here still grant him a place on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/173 "2014-12-31T04:12:57Z")
Gene Hackman. An undeniably talented actor but I’ve heard he was a miserable prick to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/174 "2014-12-31T16:23:28Z")
> [@Idilia\_Dubb](#): > > [Frank Lloyd] Wright was a bastard to his family? Tell us more. Wright abandoned his wife and six kids to run away with the wife of an architectural client. He was an arrogant, selfish prima donna, running badly over-budget on most projects (once bankrupting a client in Buffalo). Although a visionary architect, he was a very bad practical engineer (Fallingwater’s fabled cantilevered porches, for instance, would’ve long ago fallen into the creek below had it not been for extra structural steel snuck in by the builder against Wright’s orders, and later strengthening by the Western Penna. Conservancy, which now owns the house). As noted earlier, H.P. Lovecraft was a racist and anti-Semite, and Richard Wagner hated Jews, too. Eric Gill, the famous English font designer (Gill Sans, Perpetua, etc.) and artist, sexually abused his own kids and dog, and committed incest with his sister. Jeffrey Archer is a very talented British author but also, by all accounts, a hugely narcissistic asshole and a convicted perjurer to boot. N.C. Wyeth almost certainly had an affair with his daughter-in-law. Michael Jackson, 'nuff said. None of this stops me from appreciating their work. I think you have to be able to separate artists’ personal failings, no matter how awful, from the merits of what they produce. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/175 "2014-12-31T16:29:55Z")
Betty White has publicly called Cloris Leachman a pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/176 "2014-12-31T17:32:35Z")
Not sure if this fits here, but does anyone else watch the NatGeo series “Life Below Zero”? Here’s a paradox for me: My favorite person on the show is Sue Aiken, who owns and operates a fishing camp on the North Shore of Alaska. However, lots of other people say they can’t stand her, and while I enjoy watching her on the show, and all the MacGyvering she does to keep the place running, I figured out very quickly that she lives where and how she does, because she cannot function in the “regular” world. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/177 "2014-12-31T21:21:48Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow, did this take too long to get posted. Maybe it’s a sign we’re forgetting him. > > The recent retirement of Derek Jeter was such a bittersweet moment, involving one of the most gracious and upstanding athletes of our generation, and it shows how true greatness as an athlete and a human being need not be exclusive. > > Then there’s Barry… possibly one of the most gifted players to ever don spikes, and a complete, thorough, unpleasant, demanding, egotistical asshole I wouldn’t ask for an autograph if he knocked on my door. > > …and that comes from a Yankee-hater for many reasons including a whole family of generational die-hard BoSox in-laws, and a third-generation Giants fan. Go figger. I’d still hang out with Bonds before I’d hang out with Jeff Kent, and I say that as a die-hard Dodgers fan. _spits in Kent’s general direction_ ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/178 "2015-01-01T08:54:48Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > That’s incorrect. Not _all_ the founding fathers had slaves. John Adams and Ben Franklin, for example, didn’t. (Adams, in particular, opposed slavery his entire life and called it a “foul contagion in the human character” and “an evil of colossal magnitude.”) Of course, Adams was an arrogant little prick who tried to jail his political enemies when he was president and Franklin was a shameless libertine with an inexplicable prejudice toward German immigrants so there are other reasons to trash them and their legacy. [Regarding Franklin and slaves:](http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/franklin-newrepublic.html) > [@](#): > > “The Hypocrisy of this Country” > > Benjamin Franklin, despite having brought two Black slaves to England in 1757, became an eager supporter and correspondent of Anthony Benezet, the Philadelphia abolitionist and educator, who had written important anti-slavery pamphlets, books, and newspaper articles. As president of the Pennsylvania anti-slavery society, Franklin appealed for public support of a humanitarian plan to not only emancipate slaves, but to educate free blacks and their children and to facilitate their progress toward good citizenship. There are many other cites that discuss Franklin and his ownership of slaves, but this seemed the most reputable. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/179 "2015-01-01T10:41:38Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’d still hang out with Bonds before I’d hang out with Jeff Kent, and I say that as a die-hard Dodgers fan. _spits in Kent’s general direction_ How can we have made it this far without mentioning Ty Cobb? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283/180 "2015-01-01T10:47:12Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > How can we have made it this far without mentioning Ty Cobb? Because he makes everyone mentioned look like a saint in comparison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undeniably-talented-artists-performers-who-are-also-undeniably-horrible-people/708283.md?page=10)