# Under what circumstances should a cop shooting someone be justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153 "2020-08-27T14:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/241 "2020-09-01T23:05:35Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > First of all the defund/abolish the police movement is at least 50 years old, and has **never** meant just taking all the money from the police budget and doing nothing else. It has **always** meant diverting that money to institutions that are better suited to deal with certain things than the police and relieving the police of that responsibility. It’s a destination, not the first step. > This has been explained on many occasions on this board and all over the internet, so anybody who is still quibbling about semantics is either too stupid to be apart of the debate, or is intentionally misconstruing that fact to mislead or misinform others. [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html) # Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/242 "2020-09-01T23:17:45Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Are you K9Bfriender? No, I am not. But I wish s/he and I knew each other so we could have coffee together (even just Zoom or FaceTime) so we could discuss things like this. I think I would enjoy that. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/243 "2020-09-01T23:18:32Z")
Yes I, too, literally mean abolish the police. I don’t mean abolish law and order. I don’t mean just abandon the citizenry to the criminals. I do mean diverting money from the police to mental health services and not having the police deal with mental health crises calls. I do mean diverting money from the police to affordable housing services and not having the police deal with homelessness. I do mean implementing a restorative justice program instead of the current prison explosion. And more! So much more! The **end goal** would be a world without any cops. But that won’t happen tomorrow. There’s work to be done. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/244 "2020-09-01T23:18:53Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Does your dad plant guns on criminals or tell you that it is prevalanet? Yes and yes. Did, no longer does because he’s dead. Natural causes. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/245 "2020-09-02T00:49:44Z")
This is my thought experiment on reform. I think police forces probably need to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. My idea is that the bulk of the people hired as _peace officers_ would have degrees in social work or training sufficient to act as a social worker, and that sort of orientation of character. I think the vast majority of the job is or should be that sort of work. They would have much more extensive training than now. Perhaps policing would be its own undergrad or professional degree. Training would include de-escalation and how to deal with mental health crises. All officers would work with partners. Failure to intervene when your partner used excessive force would result in termination. Units dispatched for traffic accidents, completed burglaries, etc, where someone just needs a police report, and that sort of thing would not carry guns. Units dispatched for crimes in progress or more volatile situations would be armed, but there would be a strong orientation and culture that using one’s gun is a failure. There could be justified shootings, but there are never “good” shootings, because the ideal is to save everyone. There would be extensive leave and care provided to anyone who did shoot a person, because doing so should be treated as a huge thing, and because the “failure” policy would be tough on people. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/246 "2020-09-02T13:15:12Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Do you think there ought to be parity between the number of police killed by civilians and the number of civilians killed by police? No, but I do think that the dangers that cops are in are drastically overblown in order to justify their harsh treatment of the people that they are supposed to protect. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Do you think the typical police shooting looks like the Philando Castille shooting? That seems unlikely. Or do you think that any significant portion of these victims had weapons planted on them? Typical? No, why would you ask that? Do you think that a shooting like Castille is justified because cops fear for their lives? > [@damuriajashi](#): > > You don’t know any cops do you? Yes, I do. And they condemn the shooting of unarmed people. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/247 "2020-09-02T13:20:06Z")
My ideal world would be one where if someone wants to join in with the justice system, they first get themselves a law degree, and become a prosecutor. If they get good at that, then they get promoted to a public defender. If they get good at that, then they get promoted to a peace officer. Long road to get there, but we can’t get there by going backwards. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/248 "2020-09-02T15:11:41Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > No, I am not. > > But I wish s/he and I knew each other so we could have coffee together (even just Zoom or FaceTime) so we could discuss things like this. I think I would enjoy that. Then why would you answer a question directed at K9bfriender based on comments they made? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/249 "2020-09-02T15:17:07Z")
These seems an odd objection, as your first post in this thread was responding to a post that was not directed at you. Many of your posts were responding to posts not directed at you. @BippityBoppityBoo, if you are ever in the area, I’ll bring the coffee 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/250 "2020-09-02T15:19:59Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Yes > I, too, literally mean abolish the police. > I don’t mean abolish law and order. > I don’t mean just abandon the citizenry to the criminals. > I do mean diverting money from the police to mental health services and not having the police deal with mental health crises calls. > I do mean diverting money from the police to affordable housing services and not having the police deal with homelessness. > I do mean implementing a restorative justice program instead of the current prison explosion. > And more! So much more! > The **end goal** would be a world without any cops. But that won’t happen tomorrow. There’s work to be done. Yep. That is a pretty stupid idea. That is what caused everyone to redefine “defund the police” to mean just moving a few dollars around. Most people do not think that we can kumbaya our way to a world that no longer needs police. Might as well wish for a world that no longer needs governments. The world has evil people in it. Some of them are cops, most of them are not. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/251 "2020-09-02T15:28:10Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > This is my thought experiment on reform. > > I think police forces probably need to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. My idea is that the bulk of the people hired as _peace officers_ would have degrees in social work or training sufficient to act as a social worker, and that sort of orientation of character. I think the vast majority of the job is or should be that sort of work. > > They would have much more extensive training than now. Perhaps policing would be its own undergrad or professional degree. Training would include de-escalation and how to deal with mental health crises. All officers would work with partners. Failure to intervene when your partner used excessive force would result in termination. > > Units dispatched for traffic accidents, completed burglaries, etc, where someone just needs a police report, and that sort of thing would not carry guns. Units dispatched for crimes in progress or more volatile situations would be armed, but there would be a strong orientation and culture that using one’s gun is a failure. There could be justified shootings, but there are never “good” shootings, because the ideal is to save everyone. There would be extensive leave and care provided to anyone who did shoot a person, because doing so should be treated as a huge thing, and because the “failure” policy would be tough on people. I have to ask, how many cops do you know? I don’t know how it is in other places but in my locality, cops typically have undergrad degrees. Their professional training and ongoing training includes a lot more social work type stuff than firearms training. Some people think that more firearms training would give these cops the confidence they need to display more restraint in lethal situations. I agree that cops should be holding each other more accountable. The biggest problem with the police IMHO is the “thin blue line” mentality that pressures cops to turn a blind eye to the criminal activity of other cops. The idea of using ones gun being a failure might conflict with the safety of the officer, I think this is a horrible mentality and policy. How much do you think a cop should hesitate when their life is in imminent danger? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/252 "2020-09-02T15:53:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, but I do think that the dangers that cops are in are drastically overblown in order to justify their harsh treatment of the people that they are supposed to protect. There are judicial standards. How would you change those judicial standards? Should cops expose themselves to more risk than the average civilian is expected to expose themselves to before they can respond? The primary difference between a civilian and a cop is that the cops have the police power. The police power can be limited with legislation. We live in a democracy whereby we choose those legislators. The notion that we are oppressed by the police is really the notion that we are oppressing ourselves. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Typical? No, why would you ask that? > > Do you think that a shooting like Castille is justified because cops fear for their lives? If his case is not typuical then why would you hold it up as an example of what “armed” means in these stats? And of course Philando Castille’s shooting was not justified. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, I do. And they condemn the shooting of unarmed people. Then your cop friends seem very atypical perhaps they don’t have the fleeing felon rule where you live. I can’t figure out how to see where you live in this new site but most states have a fleeing felon rule that allows cops to shoot unarmed felons in the back to prevent their escape even if there is no imminent threat to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/253 "2020-09-02T16:01:47Z")
Unfortunately, the ones who are not particularly problematic seem to have a hard time removing the ones who are. Bad policing perpetuates the kinds of aggression that police have to confront. They make neighborhoods less trusting of the police and less cooperative, which makes these places and policing them, even more dangerous. The problem I have with the talk of defunding the police is that it’s just one aspect of the problem. The “bad guys” out there are often underemployed men and living in unstable environments. Until we deal with that issue, defunding the police will only go so far. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/254 "2020-09-02T16:05:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My ideal world would be one where if someone wants to join in with the justice system, they first get themselves a law degree, and become a prosecutor. > > If they get good at that, then they get promoted to a public defender. > > If they get good at that, then they get promoted to a peace officer. > > Long road to get there, but we can’t get there by going backwards. So the road to becoming a cop is longer than the road to becoming a doctor? Depending on what you mean by getting good at becoming a prosecutor/public defender, they might be 60 years old before they can become a cop. Hmm. Maybe. It would promote more respect for the police. The average age of a cop would be older than the typical retirement age for cops these days, there are tradeoffs but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. How much do you think we would have to pay cops to encourage people to follow a career track that seems more arduous than becoming a judge? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/255 "2020-09-02T16:05:52Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/256 "2020-09-02T16:07:18Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Unfortunately, the ones who are not particularly problematic seem to have a hard time removing the ones who are. I agree. The biggest problem IMHO is the failure of cops to hold their peers to some sort of standard. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/257 "2020-09-02T16:11:55Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The problem I have with the talk of defunding the police is that it’s just one aspect of the problem. The “bad guys” out there are often underemployed men and living in unstable environments. Until we deal with that issue, defunding the police will only go so far. Yep. No matter how you reform the police, they will still be enforcing the laws of a white supremacist system. It was just built that way. There’s a reason we identify certain parts of town a “high crime neighborhoods” when it’s really just a neighborhood that feels unsafe to white people. The crimes committed there are the ones the system is more interested in punishing. But what’s the prevalence of, say, cheating on one’s taxes, stealing from one’s employer, domestic and child abuse, prescription drug abuse, and DUI in wealthier neighborhoods? We don’t really know these rates because the whole system is not set up around detecting and punishing these crime by these people. Not to mention other ills that have not been made crimes, because it would affect the wrong people. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/258 "2020-09-02T16:34:35Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > There are judicial standards. How would you change those judicial standards? Should cops expose themselves to more risk than the average civilian is expected to expose themselves to before they can respond? Yes. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > The primary difference between a civilian and a cop is that the cops have the police power. The police power can be limited with legislation. We live in a democracy whereby we choose those legislators. The notion that we are oppressed by the police is really the notion that we are oppressing ourselves. And that’s the problem. Now, I’m not being oppressed, as I am a white middle class individual, part of the in-group. The notion is that we are oppressing minorities, those who have less power, the out-group. This is why those of us that are not being oppressed need to acknowledge out privilege, and choose legislators who will not just be beholden to us, but to the entire community. Law and order without the consent of the governed is oppression, simple as that. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > If his case is not typuical then why would you hold it up as an example of what “armed” means in these stats? Because it would still be counted among your stats of people killed while “armed”. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > And of course Philando Castille’s shooting was not justified. But he was “armed” was he not? > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Then your cop friends seem very atypical perhaps they don’t have the fleeing felon rule where you live. I can’t figure out how to see where you live in this new site but most states have a fleeing felon rule that allows cops to shoot unarmed felons in the back to prevent their escape even if there is no imminent threat to anyone. I think you misunderstand the fleeing felon rule. > **[Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/)** > > Tennessee v. Garner: Under the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, a police officer may use deadly force to prevent the escape of a fleeing suspect only if the officer has a good-faith belief that the suspect poses a significant threat of... > [@](#): > > a police officer may use deadly force to prevent the escape of a fleeing suspect only if the officer has a good-faith belief that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. > > When a non-violent felon is ordered to stop and submit to police, ignoring that order does not give rise to a reasonable good-faith belief that the use of deadly force is necessary, unless it has been threatened. > > This decision responded to the evolution of the common law, which formerly imposed a death sentence for most felonies. Shooting a non-violent fleeing felon historically would have been permitted because it would have been the same result as if he had been caught and convicted. This is no longer the situation, and the Supreme Court adjusted the rule regarding the use of deadly force to account for it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/259 "2020-09-02T16:37:22Z")
In an ideal world. Yes, wielding a gun takes more responsibility than wielding a scalpel. We’d probably have to pay quite a bit to those who have risen through to the point where we entrust the safety of our communities to them. But, you get what you pay for. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/260 "2020-09-02T16:44:06Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > There’s a reason we identify certain parts of town a “high crime neighborhoods” when it’s really just a neighborhood that feels unsafe to white people. The crimes committed there are the ones the system is more interested in punishing. And largely because that is where we do “proactive policing.” If we sent the same cops to the white middle class neighborhoods, but somehow messed with their eyesight a bit so that they could no longer see color, the suburbs would have the same stats of high crime in short order. I see drug usage and dealing, petty theft and vandalism, fights and sexual assault all the time in these neighborhoods, and I also see cops drive right on by, as their priority is to only make sure that the “wrong” people don’t come. Many of my classmates got caught for drugs or selling drugs when I was in school, in a middle class white district. The punishment was telling their parents. And sometimes, it was just a threat, a warning that _next_ time, they would tell their parents. I only know 3 kids that got involved in the justice system over drugs from school, and 2 of them were black. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=14)