# Under what circumstances should a cop shooting someone be justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153 "2020-08-27T14:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/261 "2020-09-02T16:48:31Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Yep. That is a pretty stupid idea That’s your opinion. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > That is what caused everyone to redefine “defund the police” to mean just moving a few dollars around That’s my point. No one is redefining anything. That’s always been the definition. Just because you didn’t understand that, doesn’t mean anything has changed. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Might as well wish for a world that no longer needs governments. One thing at a time. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/262 "2020-09-02T16:55:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > the suburbs would have the same stats of high crime in short order. I’m not even sure the stats are that different now. When I look at crime stats for my city, they are not that different between the “good” urban neighborhoods and the “bad” ones. It’s the perception that’s different, not really the stats in some instances. I haven’t really looked at the suburbs, though, so you may well be right that the enforcement lags there so that it affects the stats. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/263 "2020-09-02T17:02:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. So you want cops to subject themselves to more than an imminent threat of lethal or grave bodily injury? Do they actually have to be injured or shot at before they respond? It is almost entirely unworkable if you want a police force of 60 year old experienced prosecutors and public defenders. Who the hell signs up for that job? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And that’s the problem. Now, I’m not being oppressed, as I am a white middle class individual, part of the in-group. The notion is that we are oppressing minorities, those who have less power, the out-group. > > This is why those of us that are not being oppressed need to acknowledge out privilege, and choose legislators who will not just be beholden to us, but to the entire community. > > Law and order without the consent of the governed is oppression, simple as that. The majority of NYC’s voters are minority. They do not need white saviors to vote out the oppressors and vote in the liberators. Is NYC free from police oppression? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Because it would still be counted among your stats of people killed while “armed”. Yes but it’s not typical. You can’t undermine the statistic by pointing to a case that you admit is not typical. That would be like me saying that rape statistics aren’t indicative of anything because I found a case where the rape victim lied. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > But he was “armed” was he not? Yeah. So? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think you misunderstand the fleeing felon rule. I am familiar with the case and the case STILL allows you to shoot a fleeing unarmed felon in the back despite a lack of imminent threat of death of grave bodily injury. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/264 "2020-09-02T17:10:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > In an ideal world. Yes, wielding a gun takes more responsibility than wielding a scalpel. > > We’d probably have to pay quite a bit to those who have risen through to the point where we entrust the safety of our communities to them. > > But, you get what you pay for. Most Americans have the right to wield a gun. We are talking about who should have the police power. How many cops do you think a city like NYC would need? A senior attorney (non-partner) makes~300K/year, about 4 times what the average NYPD cop makes. Assuming these attorneys that are between 8-12 years out of law school meet your requirements for competence, you are now asking them to put their lives in more danger than they would if they remained civilians. What do you think we would have to pay to get enough cops to police a city like NYC? This seems like a huge increase to the police budget. At least you aren’t one of those defund the police types. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/265 "2020-09-02T17:18:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And largely because that is where we do “proactive policing.” > > If we sent the same cops to the white middle class neighborhoods, but somehow messed with their eyesight a bit so that they could no longer see color, the suburbs would have the same stats of high crime in short order. > > I see drug usage and dealing, petty theft and vandalism, fights and sexual assault all the time in these neighborhoods, and I also see cops drive right on by, as their priority is to only make sure that the “wrong” people don’t come. > > Many of my classmates got caught for drugs or selling drugs when I was in school, in a middle class white district. The punishment was telling their parents. And sometimes, it was just a threat, a warning that _next_ time, they would tell their parents. > > I only know 3 kids that got involved in the justice system over drugs from school, and 2 of them were black. This is not true. Felonies, particularly violent felonies are geographically concentrated. There is a science to it. Your anecdotal evidence does not negate that. > **[Crime concentration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_concentration)** > > A Crime concentration is a spatial area to which high levels of crime incidents are attributed. A crime concentration can be the result of homogeneous or heterogeneous crime incidents. Hotspots are the result of various crimes occurring in relative proximity to each other within predefined human geopolitical or social boundaries. Crime concentrations are smaller units or set of crime targets within a hotspot. A single or a conjunction of crime concentrations within a study area can make up a crim... ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/266 "2020-09-02T17:23:28Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > That’s your opinion. Yes, mine and pretty much every elected politician. There are no federal level politicians that i can think of that continue to think that defunding the police in its original form is a good idea. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > That’s my point. No one is redefining anything. That’s always been the definition. Just because you didn’t understand that, doesn’t mean anything has changed. Wait. What? They redefine the term “defund the police” to go from, get rid of the police to just moving a few dollars around and you say see they didn’t redefine anything? > [@mikecurtis](#): > > One thing at a time. That’s an even dumber idea than defunding the police. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/267 "2020-09-02T17:26:51Z")
There are a few issues with determining if a shooting is justified after the fact 1. Evidence. Cops control the evidence and can make a scene fit their story. 2. The thin blue line. Cops are not going to rat on each other. I was reading this week that Frank Serpico still gets harrassed/threatened by police. I would expand this out by saying the court system (prosecuters, judges, juries) improperly give more weight to LEO testimony than civilians. If a cop testifies, He said he was going to shoot me." and a witness (or victim) says the victim never said that, who will the courts believe? 3. Bullying. Cops will attempt to violate witnesses’ constitutional rights by ordering them to stop filming. This is part of a larger problem where cops make up laws or are justified by claiming “resisting arrest” or “obstructing justice” 4. Lack of accountabilty. If a cop does something wrong, they move on to another department. In this way it is similar to the RC priest/pedophila contraversy. At what point do the powers-that-be say you can no longer be a cop? Professionals lose their certificstions, Lawyers get disbarred. And often those records are public. But no equivalent for law enforcement. And adding to that, “qualified immunity” gives police protection for their oopsie-doopsies. Protections us civilians don’t get. How does this answer the OP’s question? In a world where these are not issues, I believe almost every case of a police shooting could be looked at by an impartial panel and like pornography, they’d know an unjustified shooting when they saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/268 "2020-09-02T17:45:04Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The biggest problem IMHO is the failure of cops to hold their peers to some sort of standard. This is one of my ‘unholy trinity’ causing police violence, in no particular order: 1. Ubiquitous ownership of firearms. There is a backdrop of “this guy could have a gun” that is present for every interaction of police and non-police. 2. The thin blue line. We’ve all seen videos of unnecessary police violence, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video of an officer stopping another officer from doing something, or arresting another officer for an egregious attack on a non-officer. They universally support their fellow officers while in the field, and at best grudgingly backtrack on it if it’s shown that their peer was criminally violent. 3. Reliance on violence. Police routinely escalate situations in order to force compliance, often resorting to violence to get their way. I saw a video of a man talking to a few officers when another officer grabbed him from behind, yelled at him, then slammed him on the ground breaking his arm. His fellow officers were upset, because he bodyslammed the wrong guy, an innocent old man. They were not upset because grabbing a non-violent person and slamming him to the ground is bad police work, if it had been the right guy, they would have been fine with it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/269 "2020-09-02T17:45:11Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So you want cops to subject themselves to more than an imminent threat of lethal or grave bodily injury? Do they actually have to be injured or shot at before they respond? It is almost entirely unworkable if you want a police force of 60 year old experienced prosecutors and public defenders. Who the hell signs up for that job? Nothing that you have said there is actually in relation to what I have said, only positions that you have attributed for some reason. What you asked was whether a cop should have to endure more risk than a civilian. I think that the answer to that is obvious. We give them a gun and training and everything. Then you extrapolate into stupidity, for whatever reasons you have for that. I would say that at the very least, yes, someone should be actually threatening them in some way. Not just a potential threat, not just a suspicion of a threat, not just a fear of a threat. But an actual threat. If that means that occasionally a criminal gets off the first shot, then that’s what it means. One of the benefits of having a higher quality, better trained and educated police force would be that they would have much better threat assessment. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > The majority of NYC’s voters are minority. They do not need white saviors to vote out the oppressors and vote in the liberators. Is NYC free from police oppression? Some presumptions on you part there to ask that question. Unless you are saying that the poor neighborhoods, some of which are predominately white, are represented as well as the wealthy areas and businesses, then I’m not sure what it is that you are trying to claim. NYC is getting better, but the police are still more of an occupation force for many areas than they are there to serve and protect. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Yes but it’s not typical. You can’t undermine the statistic by pointing to a case that you admit is not typical. That would be like me saying that rape statistics aren’t indicative of anything because I found a case where the rape victim lied. No, it would be more like saying that looking at stats of weapon or drug possession should be looked at with some suspicion as those who have sworn their duty to protect their communities have planted guns and drugs, and that their colleagues have lied to protect them. There is no collusion among false rape accusers. There is no “thin blue line”. They don’t risk their lives and their careers for outing other false accusers. So, your analogy was very far off the mark, extremely so. I can only assume that you meant it in good faith, but as it not only is so poor of an analogy, but also does a good job of minimizing sexual assault, that I would ask that you not try to use such a fallacious and potentially harmful debate tactic again. If you want to try to continue making an analogy involving dishonesty, I would suggest you pick any of the many other times and circumstances that people lie, and leave sexual assault out of it. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Yeah. So? So, he counts as armed. When you say that most people killed by police are armed, you would include the times when someone has a legally registered firearm, and has not used it or threatened to use it. The case in controversial encounters right now has a person who dropped their gun while they were fleeing from officers, which prompted them to shoot him in the back. That would be considered in the stats for being armed. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I am familiar with the case and the case STILL allows you to shoot a fleeing unarmed felon in the back despite a lack of imminent threat of death of grave bodily injury. Cite please? I have cited that you may not. Can you cite the case that overturned this SCOTUS ruling? Now, that a police officer can get away with shooting someone in the back by claiming that they thought that they were an imminent threat, sure, cops lie all the time. But if a cop was honest, and said, “I knew that this person was no threat to myself or others, but if he got away, it would be extra work to try to find him again.” then he would not be justified. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/270 "2020-09-02T17:46:52Z")
I’m not sure what it is that you are saying that I said is not true. Apparently all of it. But, I guess what you are trying to say is that crime doesn’t exist in middle class neighborhoods, only in poor ones. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/271 "2020-09-02T17:53:14Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Yes, mine and pretty much every elected politician. There are no federal level politicians that i can think of that continue to think that defunding the police in its original form is a good idea. You mean, according to the definition that you have chosen to latch on to, and refuse to change, no matter who tells you otherwise? > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Wait. What? They redefine the term “defund the police” to go from, get rid of the police to just moving a few dollars around and you say see they didn’t redefine anything? yeah, that’s what it’s meant for longer than you’ve heard of the phrase. It’s not really changed so much as you refusing to acknowledge that it doesn’t mean what you insist it must mean. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > That’s an even dumber idea than defunding the police. Once again, a good goal to have, even if it is at the end of a long road that we will never likely reach. Governments have both good aspects and negative aspects. We endure the negative because we assume that they the alternative is worse, and in this world, it certainly would be. But, the government is a symbol of force and tyranny, and it always will be, no matter how benevolent. If we are able to achieve a world where that force and tyranny is unnecessary, then that’s a good thing, not a dumb thing. Will we get there? Probably not. But that doesn’t mean that traveling the road of decreasing the force and tyranny of the government is not a good thing, and certainly not a “dumb” thing, as you so lazily describe. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/272 "2020-09-02T17:53:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nothing that you have said there is actually in relation to what I have said, only positions that you have attributed for some reason. This seems to be his mo. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/273 "2020-09-02T17:59:47Z")
[quote=“Saint\_Cad, post:267, topic:919153, full:true”] There are a few issues with determining if a shooting is justified after the fact[/quote] I agree that this is the problem. I think a more honest accountable police force is necessary no matter what else we do. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/274 "2020-09-02T18:03:51Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Felonies, particularly violent felonies are geographically concentrated. There is a science to it. Your anecdotal evidence does not negate that. The hotspots are based on reported crimes, yes? His anecdotal evidence is that the crimes went unreported. Unless you have a cite that says crime concentration measures include unreported crimes, it looks like a valid criticism. Anecdotal evidence that statistical evidence being cited is not accurate is a valid criticism. I don’t dispute that there are concentrations of (reported) crimes. I do dispute that these areas necessarily correspond with areas commonly referred to – by the public or the police – as “high crime areas.” And when police say it, it tends to be taken at face value, and not scientifically proven. Just looking at a crime “heat map” of my city, some areas of town that people are afraid of (and which have a higher concentration of black people) have lesser crime rates than areas that are regarded as very nice, and quite safe. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/275 "2020-09-02T18:53:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Nothing that you have said there is actually in relation to what I have said, only positions that you have attributed for some reason. > > What you asked was whether a cop should have to endure more risk than a civilian. I think that the answer to that is obvious. We give them a gun and training and everything. > > Then you extrapolate into stupidity, for whatever reasons you have for that. > > I would say that at the very least, yes, someone should be actually threatening them in some way. Not just a potential threat, not just a suspicion of a threat, not just a fear of a threat. But an actual threat. > > If that means that occasionally a criminal gets off the first shot, then that’s what it means. But that’s not the standard. Cops don’t get to shoot someone because of a potentiality of a threat or suspicion of a threat. There typically has to be an imminent threat. How would you change that standard? I extrapolate to stupidity because I think that is where your position leads. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > One of the benefits of having a higher quality, better trained and educated police force would be that they would have much better threat assessment. How does a prior career as a prosecutor and public defender improve threat assessment ability? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Some presumptions on you part there to ask that question. > > Unless you are saying that the poor neighborhoods, some of which are predominately white, are represented as well as the wealthy areas and businesses, then I’m not sure what it is that you are trying to claim. > > NYC is getting better, but the police are still more of an occupation force for many areas than they are there to serve and protect. NYC is a democracy. The rich people don’t get to vote twice. > **[Demographics of New York City](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City)** > > New York City is a large and ethnically diverse metropolis. It is the largest city in the United States with a long history of international immigration. The New York region continues to be by far the leading metropolitan gateway for legal immigrants admitted into the United States. The city is the geographical and demographic center of both the Northeast megalopolis and the New York metropolitan area, the largest metropolitan area in the U.S. by both population and urban area. Wit The city a... > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, it would be more like saying that looking at stats of weapon or drug possession should be looked at with some suspicion OK then by analogy we should look at rape statistics with suspicion because there are anecdotes about false rape accusations. Anecdaotes simply do not trump statistics. I pick sexual assault because it makes it clear how bad your arguments are when applied to other situations where you want to believe the statistics rather than undermine them. So I think the rape analogy works particularly well to rebut you when you use anecdote to undermine statistics. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, he counts as armed. Yes and until they get discovered, false rape accusers are counted as raped. So does that mean we can’t really trust the rape statistics? Or is it possible that outliers and anecdotes do not undermine data? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Cite please? I have cited that you may not. Can you cite the case that overturned this SCOTUS ruling? > > Now, that a police officer can get away with shooting someone in the back by claiming that they thought that they were an imminent threat, sure, cops lie all the time. But if a cop was honest, and said, “I knew that this person was no threat to myself or others, but if he got away, it would be extra work to try to find him again.” then he would not be justified. Of course a cop can’t shoot to kill someone because it would be a pain in his ass to find them later on. But if he reasonably thought that that person posed a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others (regardless of whether they are armed) if they escaped, then they can shoot to kill. Tennessee v Garner doesn’t say what you think. The cops still have pretty wide discretion to reasonably assess when a fleeing felon poses a threat. This was clarified 4 years later in Graham v Connor. > **[Graham v. Connor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_v._Connor)** > > Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court determined that an objective reasonableness standard should apply to a civilian's claim that law enforcement officials used excessive force in the course of making an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of his or her person. > Dethorne Graham traveled with a friend to a convenience store to buy orange juice to counteract an insulin reaction that Graham was experiencing. Graham entered the ... So, if for example a cop saw a guy butcher someone, and he dropped his machete and ran away, and I (after 20 years as a prosecutor and public defender) didn’t have the stamina to catch him, I think I can shoot him to prevent him from getting away if I reasonably thought he was dangerous enough. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/276 "2020-09-02T19:08:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not sure what it is that you are saying that I said is not true. Apparently all of it. > > But, I guess what you are trying to say is that crime doesn’t exist in middle class neighborhoods, only in poor ones. No, I am trying to say that crime is not evenly distributed geographically. Some places are more crime ridden than others. Some neighborhoods have more crime than others. It seems silly to police high crime areas the same as low crime areas. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/277 "2020-09-02T19:17:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You mean, according to the definition that you have chosen to latch on to, and refuse to change, no matter who tells you otherwise? I’ve provided a cite showing that people actually meant defund the police. I agree that they have since changed the definition. But it was a redefintiion of words that already had definitions. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > yeah, that’s what it’s meant for longer than you’ve heard of the phrase. > > It’s not really changed so much as you refusing to acknowledge that it doesn’t mean what you insist it must mean. I’m using the definition used by people who actually want to defund the police. You can insist that i redefine the word defund to actually mean reform but that is no more accurate than saying that defund planned parenthood means to pass out free condoms. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Once again, a good goal to have, even if it is at the end of a long road that we will never likely reach. > > Governments have both good aspects and negative aspects. We endure the negative because we assume that they the alternative is worse, and in this world, it certainly would be. > > But, the government is a symbol of force and tyranny, and it always will be, no matter how benevolent. If we are able to achieve a world where that force and tyranny is unnecessary, then that’s a good thing, not a dumb thing. > > Will we get there? Probably not. But that doesn’t mean that traveling the road of decreasing the force and tyranny of the government is not a good thing, and certainly not a “dumb” thing, as you so lazily describe. That is a stupid idea because in EVERY world, the alternative to anarchy is better than anarchy. Pursuing an impossible goal can in fact cause harm in some cases (see war on drugs). BTW how do i report personal attacks? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/278 "2020-09-02T19:17:23Z")
No gun? Look, only one major nation doesnt arm it’s beat officers routinely, that is the UK, where it is tradition, and they also have few handguns in the hands of the populace. As opposed to the uSA with 300 Million guns and a long tradition of armed police. Gangs have announced 'wars" on police, shooting them whenever possible. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/279 "2020-09-02T19:18:14Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > This seems to be his mo. Are content free personal attacks still prohibited in Great Debates? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/280 "2020-09-02T19:20:02Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > The hotspots are based on reported crimes, yes? His anecdotal evidence is that the crimes went unreported. Unless you have a cite that says crime concentration measures include unreported crimes, it looks like a valid criticism. Anecdotal evidence that statistical evidence being cited is not accurate is a valid criticism. > > I don’t dispute that there are concentrations of (reported) crimes. I do dispute that these areas necessarily correspond with areas commonly referred to – by the public or the police – as “high crime areas.” And when police say it, it tends to be taken at face value, and not scientifically proven. Just looking at a crime “heat map” of my city, some areas of town that people are afraid of (and which have a higher concentration of black people) have lesser crime rates than areas that are regarded as very nice, and quite safe. You think that rapes, murders, burglaries, robberies, etc are more likely to be reported in poor neighborhoods than wealthy ones? There may be some bullshit in what police departments call high crime areas but there is a science to this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=15)