# Under what circumstances should a cop shooting someone be justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153 "2020-08-27T14:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/121 "2020-08-28T21:10:44Z")
In my little world, aka the [real](https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/police_dispatch_stats/) world, the vast, vast majority of police calls are non-violent. Imagining that all cops need guns is to be living in a fantasy world based on TV and movies. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/122 "2020-08-28T21:47:32Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > No, it wasn’t obvious–because SWAT teams should not be the only ones justified in using guns. What about the cops assigned to the gang units, drugs units, etc? > > And the average cop is not “terrified” to pull someone over or answer a domestic call. But they have reason to be wary. A lot of cops have been injured or killed. Domestic calls are one of the most dangerous calls. > > But I guess in your little world, cops can just call the SWAT team in and the bad guys with the guns will readily and willingly agree. And while they are waiting for the SWAT team, the cops can offer the bad guys some milk and cookies. Maybe sing some song and stuff, too? > > And what about the smaller cities and towns there is no SWAT team. I guess they can call into the big cities and ask for help and wait three or four hours. > > Oh–not all cops are racist and not all cops kill innocent black people. Sometimes the black guys have guns and are criminals. And sometimes it’s a black cop who kills a black person. > > Now, if the average cop was Barney Fife from Mayberry, then I wholeheartedly agree–he should not have a gun. Solid post, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/123 "2020-08-28T21:59:49Z")
^^^Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/124 "2020-08-28T22:13:01Z")
Well, once you manage to get rid of the 300million guns in the USA, then we can talk about disarming them. Mind you, as the ACLU sez “Divest & Re-invest” so cutting a few % off the Police budget for Community support officers isnt a bad idea at all. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/125 "2020-08-28T22:16:19Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > …But they have reason to be wary. A lot of cops have been injured or killed. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/126 "2020-08-28T22:23:30Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Cite? Seriously? Okay–if you need a cite for something that is common knowledge: > **[Domestic violence calls proven to be most dangerous for responding officers](https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/domestic-violence-calls-proven-to-be-most-dangerous-for-responding-law-enforcement-officers/285-c7fef991-320d-4d4d-9449-2ede67c10829)** > > U.S. DOJ report shows that 40% of officer deaths are related to domestic violence calls. > **[Dangers of Domestic Violence Calls - Today's Tip with Lexipol](https://www.lexipol.com/resources/todays-tips/dangers-of-domestic-violence-calls/)** > > Dangers of domestic violence calls are always present. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, these calls are the most dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/127 "2020-08-28T22:24:29Z")
Per [this site](https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/law-enforcement-facts), the US has 800000 cops, with an average death toll of ~163 per year over the last ten years. 163 is a big number. It’s way more fingers than I have. So I guess that’s a lot of deaths. It looks like there were 18,005 injuries in 2018, which sure is a lot of injuries. You don’t even have a 98% chance of making it through the year unscathed! ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/128 "2020-08-28T22:38:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The video is evidence. The dishonest words of the cops are evidence. Judge Adrine’s opinions are evidence. The dishonest failure to disclose his past for one of the cops is evidence. There’s plenty of evidence – certainly enough for reasonable concern that a reasonable attempt to get justice was not made here. And one of those officers “had resigned rather than face certain termination due to the concern that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer” according to another department. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/129 "2020-08-28T22:44:16Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > Okay–if you need a cite for something that is common knowledge: You said it was a dangerous job. Prove it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics It’s more dangerous to be a refuse collector than a cop. more dangerous to be a groundskeeper, and a construction helper than a cop. and none of those jobs require a gun and allow people to murder with impunity. > [@begbert2](#): > > with an average death toll of ~163 per year over the last ten years. that’s all deaths, including accidental. [it’s actually 50 felonious deaths per year.](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/leoka19_tables_rev.pdf) clearly there are risks involved with police work, but it’s far from a “dangerous job” ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/130 "2020-08-28T22:59:07Z")
I don’t have to prove anything. And the only time I mentioned “dangerous” was about the domestic calls (_“Domestic calls are one of the most dangerous calls”_). And you asked for a cite for that and I provided it. Care to show me where I said it was a “dangerous job”? And if you want more than that, too bad. The last I checked, I don’t answer to you. But–a police officer IS listed on the top 25 most dangerous jobs. In this article, it’s ranked #18. > **[25 Most Dangerous Jobs in America – 24/7 Wall St.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/01/08/most-dangerous-jobs-us-where-fatal-injuries-happen-most-often/38832907/)** > > In 2017 there were 5,147 accidental deaths in the American workplace. This figure is slightly down from 2016’s 5,190 deaths, but is still close to the highest annual total in a decade. One cause for these high totals is the rising toll of drug... I don’t deny there are other jobs more dangerous on that list, and I never said other wise. In fact you just made the claim that being a cop is NOT a dangerous job, and I have proven you wrong. How about them apples? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/131 "2020-08-28T23:02:12Z")
> [@TheCuse](#): > > But they have reason to be wary. A lot of cops have been injured or killed. You’re right. you didnt use the word dangerous, but you implied it. > [@TheCuse](#): > > In fact you just made the claim that being a cop is NOT a dangerous job, and I have proven you wrong. And my job is listed at #12, and I dont consider it a dangerous job and I dont get to shoot people. ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/132 "2020-08-28T23:16:07Z")
Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/133 "2020-08-29T00:02:48Z")
So what? Just because it is not the most dangerous, it doesnt mean it isnt dangerous.Logical fallacy, excludes the middle. On this list it comes in 14th of 25, > **[25 Most Dangerous Jobs in America – 24/7 Wall St.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2018/01/09/workplace-fatalities-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/)** > > It was not until 1970 that Congress, under President Richard Nixon, passed the Occupational Safety and Health Act. There were 14,000 workplace fatalities that year. As part of the act, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or OSHA, was... And police are never allowed to “murder with impunity”. If they commit actual murder they are arrested and charged. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/134 "2020-08-29T00:06:45Z")
### 12. First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers **• Fatal injuries in 2017:** 17.4 per 100,000 workers **• Total:** 121 fatal injuries, 5,320 nonfatal injuries **• Most common fatal accidents:** Falls, slips, trips ### 8. Police and sheriff’s patrol officers **• Fatal injuries in 2017:** 12.9 per 100,000 workers **• Total:** 95 fatal injuries **• Most common fatal accidents:** Violence and other injuries by persons or animals There is little reason to shoot or defend yourself from Falls, slips, or trips. Police officers are attacked by other people- _people with guns._ If there was a gremlin that was running around causing you to fall on the job, then by all means, carry a gun. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/135 "2020-08-29T00:15:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And police are never allowed to “murder with impunity”. If they commit actual murder they are arrested and charged. Ha! That’s a good one. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/136 "2020-08-29T00:22:11Z")
If police can manage to arrest White folks with guns (who sometimes are actually firing those guns at the police) without shooting said White folks (sometimes without the police even firing a shot back) then it should be at least _possible_ to arrest unarmed Black folks without killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/137 "2020-08-29T01:35:24Z")
1. Police were number 14, I am curious as to why you changed it to 8. 2. here is the context: The most common cause of death on the job were intentional shootings, which claimed the lives of 46 officers last year. Almost as many officers died in car accidents. So should cops get to shoot at moving vehicles now, too? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/138 "2020-08-29T01:50:49Z")
Refuse collectors should be allowed to. > **[Rumpke employee dies after being hit by driver](https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/middletown/driver-hits-rumpke-employee-on-middletown-route)** > > The worker was wearing his safety vest and his truck's lights were all working at the time, according to the Ohio State Highway Patrol. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/139 "2020-08-29T02:04:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No American police officer in his right mind, when faced with someone approaching him with a knife, is going to be mentally reciting charts about crime in France or cop statistics in Germany. I used to deal with people with knives. I never needed to kill anyone. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153/140 "2020-08-29T03:17:18Z")
So did I. I hurt them rather badly with a nitestick. And so yes, if someone comes at a cop with a knife- a nitestick or mace or taser is the right solution. But a gun? Shoot before they shoot you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/under-what-circumstances-should-a-cop-shooting-someone-be-justified/919153.md?page=8)