# Underage sex, is it rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 17, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944 "2022-01-17T19:21:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/61 "2022-01-19T13:44:38Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > So, greater than the average penalty for manslaughter and 2nd degree murder? Yes. Rape is worse than murder, and definitely worse than _unintentional_ killing… > [@mjmartin](#): > > If you want to label that comparison as bait and switch, have at it. I’m labeling the jump from hypothetical to actual as bait-and-switch. A non-bait-and-switchy way would have been be to ask _me_ what I felt the penalty for “forcible rape” should be. Anyway, there is just rape. Emphasizing adjectives like “forcible” or “stranger” or “real” or “date” always has a whiff of smokescreen about it. Rape is rape. An 18 yo raping a 13 yo, a knife-wielding person raping a 32 y.o. They’re both rape, and deserve the same penalty. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/62 "2022-01-19T13:52:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A non-bait-and-switchy way would have been be to ask _me_ what I felt the penalty for “forcible rape” should be. Thanks. I’ll be sure to have you vet my opinions before posting from now on. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Emphasizing adjectives like “forcible” or “stranger” or “real” or “date” always has a whiff of smokescreen about it. Rape is rape. Point taken, and I will apologize for my poor wording on this one. I meant to contrast statutory from non statutory rape. The “forcible” wording was insensitive and stupid on my part. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/63 "2022-01-19T13:55:28Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > Point taken, and I will apologize for my poor wording on this one. I meant to contrast statutory from non statutory rape. “Statutory” is doing a lot of work when it’s an 18 y.o. raping a 13 y.o. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/64 "2022-01-19T13:57:08Z")
Perhaps to you. From a legal definition, the crime is the “statutory” part. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/65 "2022-01-19T13:57:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. Rape is worse than murder Did you really mean to write that? I’m genuinely shocked that anyone would hold such an opinion. With some trepidation I wonder if you’d like to explain your thinking behind that position. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/66 "2022-01-19T14:02:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Did you really mean to write that? 🙄 No, clearly my fingers typed by themselves (@mjmartin , _that’s_ snark) > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m genuinely shocked that anyone would hold such an opinion. Is your level of shock relevant to my opinion in some way? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > With some trepidation I wonder if you’d like to explain your thinking behind that position. Feel free to open a new thread and I’ll be sure to post it there. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/67 "2022-01-19T14:04:30Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > The idea of statutory rape is to keep away predators and pedophiles, not to keep horney teens away from each other. I suspect that historically, that was exactly the point. You didn’t want the girl to be ruined. She needed to be kept intact so she could be properly married off. That was partly about wanting children to be raised within marriage, and partly about men’s ownership rights over women. You wouldn’t want the girl’s hormones to persuade her to give her virginity to a boy that hadn’t first gotten permission from her father, her owner. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/68 "2022-01-19T14:16:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is your level of shock relevant to my opinion in some way? I don’t even know what that means but I’m even more staggered if you are in any way surprised by my shock. I had to read it several times to make sure I wasn’t misreading, and my first question to you was absolutely genuine. You actually appear to be serious, that is an eye-opener to be sure. For me, underage sex is not necessarily rape and even if it were, it should be treated as a lesser crime than murder. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/69 "2022-01-19T14:25:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t even know what that means but I’m even more staggered if you are in any way surprised by my shock. Did I say I was surprised by it? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > For me, underage sex is not necessarily rape I already said I understand R&J-type laws, and am OK with them - when they’re reasonable. So I agree there, not all underage sex is rape. But _reasonable_, to me - that’s two 17 yos having sex, or a just-turned-18-last-month girl having sex with her 17-and-8-months-old boyfriend, etc. Are you saying you think 18-on-13 is _reasonable_? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > even if it were, it should be treated as a lesser crime than murder. It already very much is. And we have a pretty much near-global rape culture. Coincidence? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/70 "2022-01-19T14:57:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you saying you think 18-on-13 is _reasonable_ ? No, I think there is benefit in prosecuting that and punishing according to the facts of the individual case. That seems reasonable and “reasonableness” is a cornerstone of the legal system. What I think would be _unreasonable_ would be to consider any sex between a 13 and an 18 year old to be worthy of greater punishment than the murder of a 13 year old by an 18 year old. That seems to be the implication of your opinion and one that I remain fairly amazed by if it is indeed no more nuanced than your bald statement suggests. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/71 "2022-01-19T15:42:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, I think there is benefit in prosecuting that So, rape then. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What I think would be _unreasonable_ would be to consider any sex between a 13 and an 18 year old to be worthy of greater punishment than the murder of a 13 year old by an 18 year old. I said rape is worse than murder. I _didn’t_ say murderers (not **mjmartin** ’s manslaughterers) shouldn’t _also_ get life. So I do not think they’re worthy of greater punishment. Just equal punishment. Because they’re _both_ beyond the pale. I also favour life in prison for a some other, nonviolent, crimes, BTW, such as financial-type crimes with a big negative social impact. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/72 "2022-01-19T16:33:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, rape then Never said it wasn’t, that would certainly be the category under which it was prosecuted but of course not all crimes under a given category are equal nor do I think they deserve equal punishment. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I _didn’t_ say murderers (not **mjmartin** ’s manslaughterers) shouldn’t _also_ get life. So I do not think they’re worthy of greater punishment. Just equal punishment. Because they’re _both_ beyond the pale. That is the part that I don’t understand, you think two, unequal crimes, are worthy of equal punishment? Rape is worse than murder but deserves no greater punishment? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/73 "2022-01-19T17:52:12Z")
That makes sense to me. Punishment maxes out somewhere. Whether you think the max is banishment, or life in prison, or execution, or being tortured to death, there’s some maximum punishment. Not every crime that gets the max is the same, and some might be worse than others. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/74 "2022-01-19T18:01:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, rape then. There have been zero posts that have said an 18 to 13 sexual act is not rape or should not result in punishment. It’s your position that it should result in a punishment of life without the possibility of parole that is hard for me to understand. You seem unwilling to discuss it beyond saying that it is as bad a murder, but that you are open to R&J laws that you, personally, find reasonable. I will just say that I think that it is an extreme position, and if implemented, would do little or nothing to reduce the number of statutory or non statutory rapes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/75 "2022-01-19T18:08:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That makes sense to me. Punishment maxes out somewhere. Whether you think the max is banishment, or life in prison, or execution, or being tortured to death, there’s some maximum punishment. Not every crime that gets the max is the same, and some might be worse than others. What doesn’t make sense is applying that same maximum possible punishment for murder as you would for any crime of rape. Do you yourself think that all rape is worthy of the same maximum punishment? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/76 "2022-01-19T18:15:34Z")
Claiming rape is worse than murder is a rather extreme position. Especially if statutory rape is considered under the general umbrella of rape. A lifetime sentence for a teenagers having consensual sex is extraordinarily disproportionate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/77 "2022-01-19T18:19:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That is the part that I don’t understand, you think two, unequal crimes, are worthy of equal punishment? Hey, if I could have rapists jailed for _two_ lifetimes, I would. But absent capital punishment or torture, both of which I’m not for, life is the best I can do. > [@octopus](#): > > Claiming rape is worse than murder is a rather extreme position. Have you tried searching for the term? It’s not as uncommon as you seem to think. > [@](#): > > Especially if statutory rape is considered under the general umbrella of rape. A lifetime sentence for a teenagers having consensual sex is extraordinarily disproportionate. Nothing consensual about sexing up 13 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/78 "2022-01-19T18:27:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hey, if I could have rapists jailed for _two_ lifetimes, I would. And that would be all people convicted of rape, no matter what the individual circumstances of the offence? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Have you tried searching for the term? It’s not as uncommon as you seem to think. Plenty of extreme positions could be considered “not uncommon” and they may still be considered utterly absurd, as I believe yours is. I don’t think your zero tolerance style of justice is anything to be emulated. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/79 "2022-01-19T19:34:45Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “15’ll get ya 20” was true back then as much as now. Not really. My sister and one of her friends ran away with a couple of adult men when they were 12, and they were trafficked for several months until she got picked up by the cops in Ohio ( we lived in North Carolina ). She wasn’t working as a prostitute, just having sex with multiple men because she was dependent on them for food and shelter. She was gone for about 4 months. I don’t want to go into the details of the physical harm, but she almost died from a massive pelvic infection. In 1972, this wasn’t considered a criminal matter. Everyone knew who the men were, but no one was ever arrested or charged - except for my sister and her friend who were hit with some juvenile charges. No one ever thought of her or treated her as a victim, though. Things really were different back then, and not in a good way. Not to mention that my sister and her friend were both sexually abused as young children. I did not realize this until I was much older, but in retrospect the promiscuity as a pre-teen should’ve been a huge red flag. At some point after her death (she had a troubled life and died in her 40’s from injuries sustained in a house fire that was started while she was intoxicated), I put it all together, and one of her childhood friends later confirmed the early sexual abuse. There was a lot that sucked about the seventies, and our societal failure to protect children was a big part of it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944/80 "2022-01-19T19:43:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And that would be all people convicted of rape, no matter what the individual circumstances of the offence? Are these magical circumstances that make the rape not a rape? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Plenty of extreme positions could be considered “not uncommon” and they may still be considered utterly absurd, as I believe yours is. I don’t give a single hoot for what you consider absurd or not. I was asked for my opinion, I gave it. Don’t feel the slightest need to defend it in this thread. Or any other one you might start, now, since it’s clear you just want to make things personal. Not prepared to play that dumb game with you again. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think your zero tolerance style of justice is anything to be emulated. And since a lot of people think like you, rape culture persists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underage-sex-is-it-rape/957944.md?page=5)