# Underground/hidden internet **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853 "2012-08-27T20:19:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/41 "2012-08-28T18:30:05Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Only you can decide that. > > I just wanted people to understand that talk of the hidden internet / darkweb is not delusion; there is a whole other web available with a slightly modified version of Firefox. It cannot be censored and provides a means of secure communication that some people might find interesting or useful. I think we all understand it exists. I just don’t see any reason why a decision that’s the equivalent of deciding whether you want to upgrade your cable package should be treated like Morpheus offering Neo the secrets of the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/42 "2012-08-28T18:55:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Part of the deepweb the OP is talking about are pages that are publically accessable even though there are no links to it on the website. All you need to know is the exact pagename and location. Kind of. You said pages that are not available on search engines. What I’m talking about are pages on websites where if you clicked every possble link available, you can’t get to the page but typing in the address you can. It has nothing to do with search engines. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/43 "2012-08-28T18:57:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Kind of. You said pages that are not available on search engines. What I’m talking about are pages on websites where if you clicked every possble link available, you can’t get to the page but typing in the address you can. It has nothing to do with search engines. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/44 "2012-08-28T19:14:29Z")
For those who are curious, here is link that will get you to the Hidden Wiki: kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion Yes, that is a real link, but it won’t work in your current browser. You have to use the Tor browser (a slightly modified version of Firefox) to access it. That is what most of the links on the hidden web will look like. BTW, Tor is slow, so give it a little time. It bounces things all over the internet to prevent tracking. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/45 "2012-08-28T21:36:23Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > The “deep web”, on the other hand, consists of publicly-accessible pages that are simply not listed on search engines.If you know the exact URL you can get to it, but you won’t be able to find it on Google. Some of it, maybe, but I think most of the “deep web” (aka, “hidden web”, “invisible web” etc) consists of pages that are generated on the fly from information in databases. They are normally to accessed by typing some sort of query into a form on a regularly accessible web page. Normal search engines can’t access this material both because there is no regular hyperlink linking to the material, and because there is no permanently existing web page that holds it. However, some specialized search engines can directly index at least some of the material in the relevant databases (see my and **Tom Tildrum** ’s earlier posts). > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Kind of. You said pages that are not available on search engines. What I’m talking about are pages on websites where if you clicked every possble link available, you can’t get to the page but typing in the address you can. It has nothing to do with search engines. It comes to much the same thing. If there is a link on a page somewhere (a regular html or JavaScript hyperlink, anyway), search engine spiders can get to it and index it. If there is no link on any page they can get to, they can’t get there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/46 "2012-08-28T22:15:22Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > For those who are curious, here is link that will get you to the Hidden Wiki: > > [kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion](http://kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion) > > Yes, that is a real link, but it won’t work in your current browser. You have to use the Tor browser (a slightly modified version of Firefox) to access it. That is what most of the links on the hidden web will look like. > > BTW, Tor is slow, so give it a little time. It bounces things all over the internet to prevent tracking. How about you tell those of us who are curious what the content of that page is, so we can decide whether or not it’s worth downloading a new browser just to see it. It’s like some fantasy cliche. “Yo, wizard, I’m supposed to fight the Red Dragon and I was told you know how to defeat him.” “Wise you were to seek me out for in truth I can reveal to you that the knowledge of which you seek.” “Ummm…okay…tell me how to kill a dragon and try to do it in a grammatically correct manner.” “First, you must travel across the Desert of Great Waste. Then you will reach the Endless Ocean. Voyage across the waters until you come to the Island With No Name. Seek out the tallest tower on the isle and climb to the chamber that lies at its top. In that chamber you shall find the Book of Al-Kar-Ka. And in the book, you will find the knowledge you seek.” “Right. So this book contains the secret of how to kill a dragon?” “Most assuredly.” “And you know this because you know what’s written in that book?” “My knowledge is vast.” “I’m sure. But if the secret of killing a dragon is in that book and you know what’s written in the book, why don’t you just tell me the secret here and save me what sounds like a really long trip?” “I…I never thought of that…I guess I could…the Book of Al-Kar-Ka says that the secret of killing a dragon is to use a copper blade rubbed with onions. Dragons are allergic to that combination. You have to stab them under their wings because that’s the only soft spot in their hide.” “Copper, onions, and wings. Got it. A couple stops around the castle, an hour’s ride out to the Red Dragon’s lair. I should be back in time for supper. Thanks, wizard.” “Glad my heart is that of help I could be.” “Seriously, dude, syntax.” ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/47 "2012-08-28T23:47:09Z")
Some further clarification. The Tor network (and there are a few other such networks, in varying states of development) is not pages of the World Wide Web which Google and the like don’t index, it a whole different network of servers and routers and millions of web pages to which the major search engines and browsers don’t even connect. Going on the hidden web is not like switching cable providers. Switch cable providers and you still get the same seventy-some channels with maybe a couple of differences. Going on the hidden web would be more like switching to a cable provider that gives every person in the world who wants one his own channel and he can anonymously broadcast whatever he chooses. The Hidden Wiki is just like the Wikipedia page about the [World Wide Web](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_wide_web), except it provides information about the Tor network, which, I repeat, is not a part of the WWW, but rather an entirely separate and distinct network. I provided the link in the spirit of the SDMB, to fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/48 "2012-08-29T00:17:50Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > millions of web pages to which the major search engines and browsers don’t even connect. There is nothing stopping Google or whoever from indexing the TOR network. They can make a spider that speaks TOR, point it at the Hidden Wiki and then also get their regular HTTP spider to look for .onion links posted in forums or webpages and connect to them and index what it finds. If the .onion address is ever posted publicly anywhere on the internet, it can be indexed. In fact, here you go, its been done: > **[Ahmia — Search Tor Hidden Services](https://ahmia.fi/)** > > A search engine for services accessible on the Tor network. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/49 "2012-08-29T00:26:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about you tell those of us who are curious what the content of that page is, so we can decide whether or not it’s worth downloading a new browser just to see it. Here is the hidden wiki main page accessed through a normal browser using a proxy. (NSFW LINKS) [http://kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion.to/wiki/index.php/](http://kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion.to/wiki/index.php/) ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/50 "2012-08-29T00:49:21Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > There is nothing stopping Google or whoever from indexing the TOR network. Yes, they could, but they don’t. And notice that your browser can’t directly access the .onion URL. Personally, I wouldn’t access random .onion websites through a proxy using a standard browser. The Tor browser is designed with privacy and security in mind and makes it _nearly_ impossible for your browsing to be tracked. If you don’t know what the link leads to … well, I wouldn’t do it. The Tor network is useful, even necessary to some people. Using it for legitimate purposes is perfectly legal. Just keep in mind that it is totally uncensored and there are a lot people around who don’t like that fact. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/51 "2012-08-29T01:12:02Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > And notice that your browser can’t directly access the .onion URL. you can through the onion.to proxy, just add .to to the end of any .onion link and you can visit it in a standard browser. > [@](#): > > Personally, I wouldn’t access random .onion websites through a proxy using a standard browser. No neither would I, my point is that really to show the onion network is just another protocol, it’s like the difference between HTTP and HTTPS\*, it’s not a whole separate infrastructure, as the Tor routers and hidden services run on existing machines accessible through the public internet, most of which probably run standard HTTP services with different content. (\*with extra stuff to stop client and server being able to identify each other). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/52 "2012-08-29T01:26:36Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Some further clarification. > > The Tor network (and there are a few other such networks, in varying states of development) is not pages of the World Wide Web which Google and the like don’t index, it a whole different network of servers and routers and millions of web pages to which the major search engines and browsers don’t even connect. > > Going on the hidden web is not like switching cable providers. Switch cable providers and you still get the same seventy-some channels with maybe a couple of differences. Going on the hidden web would be more like switching to a cable provider that gives every person in the world who wants one his own channel and he can anonymously broadcast whatever he chooses. > > The Hidden Wiki is just like the Wikipedia page about the [World Wide Web](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_wide_web), except it provides information about the Tor network, which, I repeat, is not a part of the WWW, but rather an entirely separate and distinct network. > > I provided the link in the spirit of the SDMB, to fight ignorance. You’re still telling us there’s great stuff out there. But you won’t tell us what the great stuff is. We should just go see it for ourselves. Don’t ask questions. Just download this software into our computers and go look. Sorry but my rule of thumb is never download mysterious software based on promises of how cool the results will be. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/53 "2012-08-29T01:34:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sorry but my rule of thumb is never download mysterious software based on promises of how cool the results will be. I’ve given you a link that lets you see the main hidden wiki page without installing anything. Summary, there’s a bunch of sites about hacking, activism, sources of pirate software and people claiming to offer money laundering services, sites you can order drugs and weapons using Bitcoin and sites offering all kinds of pornography both legal and not legal. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/54 "2012-08-29T01:37:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re still telling us there’s great stuff out there. But you won’t tell us what the great stuff is. We should just go see it for ourselves. Don’t ask questions. Just download this software into our computers and go look. > > Sorry but my rule of thumb is never download mysterious software based on promises of how cool the results will be. I don’t know why he isn’t telling you. What you’ll see is basically a bunch of links to weird websites. It’s mostly conspiracy stuff, forums that would be very controversial for one reason or another, ways of buying dodgy things illicitly, and child porn. Don’t worry, by and large you will not be exposed to the latter so long as you haven’t got an utter pea brain. Anonymous is working to try and get rid of it entirely anyway. Some of the forums are ingenious, seriously. And you should also browse Silk Road. By the way the software itself is totally innocuous and refusing to install the software itself is on a luddite scale of refusing to install firefox, it’s that respectable now. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/55 "2012-08-29T01:48:24Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > The NSA publicly claims to use AES Again, is there a cite for this? I entirely agree that AES is the right thing to use, and I’m not for a moment suggesting that it has secret flaws or something. But the NSA has in the past maintained and recommended other, classified crypto systems for especially sensitive work ([Suite A](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_cryptography#Suite_A)), and if there is public info that gives any insight as to what the current state of affairs is I’d like to read it. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/56 "2012-08-29T02:23:10Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > And you should also browse Silk Road. For amusement value maybe but you’d be an idiot to order anything from there. Authorities in several countries are well aware of the site. They might not be able to break the encryption but they can do stings like posing as a buyer and then tracing back the physical shipment. > **[CSO Online | Security at the speed of business](https://www.csoonline.com/)** > > CSO delivers the critical information about trends, practices, and products enterprise security leaders need to defend against criminal cyberattacks and other threats. The other risk to Tor is the DEA or NSA putting up hacked Tor relays that trace and log packets. Anyone can run a Tor relay, and there doesn’t seem any protection from this attack to me. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/57 "2012-08-29T02:36:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re still telling us there’s great stuff out there. But you won’t tell us what the great stuff is. We should just go see it for ourselves. Don’t ask questions. Just download this software into our computers and go look. I did not say anyone should do anything. I simply provided the links for anyone who wants to. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/58 "2012-08-29T02:38:17Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The other risk to Tor is the DEA or NSA putting up hacked Tor relays that trace and log packets. Anyone can run a Tor relay, and there doesn’t seem any protection from this attack to me. The entire purpose of Tor is to [prevent this kind of attack](https://www.torproject.org/about/overview): > [@](#): > > No individual relay ever knows the complete path that a data packet has taken. The client negotiates a separate set of encryption keys for each hop along the circuit to ensure that each hop can’t trace these connections as they pass through. > > … > > Because each relay sees no more than one hop in the circuit, neither an eavesdropper nor a compromised relay can use traffic analysis to link the connection’s source and destination. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/59 "2012-08-29T02:46:44Z")
> [@tellyworth](#): > > The entire purpose of Tor is to [prevent this kind of attack](https://www.torproject.org/about/overview): Thats correct they can never trace it with one connection. But what if someone runs both hacked Tor entry and exit nodes (on many many different machines) and alters packet contents on the entry node so that the exit node can recognise it? Over time you can correlate IP addresses of entries with exit requests. Since the Tor network follows a different random path each time, if you put up enough hacked Tor relays, sooner or later your packets will go entirely through hacked relays, then goodbye. Also, people have been busted for running Tor exit nodes, when a user using them as a relay accessed something bad. > **[Austrian Police Seize Computers From Tor Exit Node](https://www.techdirt.com/2011/05/31/austrian-police-seize-computers-tor-exit-node/)** > > Javier points us to the news that the police in Austria have seized a bunch of computer equipment from the home of someone running a tor exit node. The email is not entirely clear, but it sounds li… ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853/60 "2012-08-29T03:17:58Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Thats correct they can never trace it with one connection. But what if someone runs both hacked Tor entry and exit nodes (on many many different machines) and alters packet contents on the entry node so that the exit node can recognise it? Over time you can correlate IP addresses of entries with exit requests. Since the Tor network follows a different random path each time, if you put up enough hacked Tor relays, sooner or later your packets will go entirely through hacked relays, then goodbye. There’s an outline of this sort of attack [here](https://blog.torproject.org/blog/one-cell-enough). In short, Tor specifically doesn’t protect against end-to-end timing attacks - that was a deliberate design limitation - and the sort of attack you’re describing is probably no more effective than those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-hidden-internet/632853.md?page=4)