# Underground Land ownership **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510 "2003-01-09T14:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RipRiley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@RipRiley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RipRiley)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/1 "2003-01-09T14:28:55Z")
I own a plot of land in the US. I’m sure by law I own the underground to a certain depth. 1. Anyone know what that is? 2. How about above the surface? 3. How about the UK and other countries? I think I remember hearing about a guy in England who found a cache of roman coins but didn’t get to keep them because the government owns all land and contents below the surface. ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Erich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@Von\_Erich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Von_Erich)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/2 "2003-01-09T15:02:05Z")
My wife received her real estate license about a year ago. I helped her with the studying and this was covered in one of her books. When you buy land you own that all the way to the center of ther earth and infinitely to the sky. It is possible to sell or buy land while retaining the mineral rights. So if I were to sell you a plot of land and I retained the mineral rights, any gold or oil or whatever you find below the ground would still belong to me. As far as what is above the land goes I have read in other threads that there is an implied easement at 500 - 1000 feet above your land for aircraft to fly. So you could not legally shoot them down saying they were on your property. Also, remember that the earth is a sphere. So if you look at a cross section, imagine a pie, your plot of land will end at a single point in the center of the earth. So when looking at a cross section of the earth your property will be in a wedge shape. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/3 "2003-01-09T15:05:29Z")
Can’t speak for Peculiar, MO, but in most places, you own the land down to an indefinite distance (“the centre of the earth” if you like). However, again in most places, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you own the mineral exploitation rights. These may belong to someone else, or may be in public ownership. Moreover if water passes under your land (either percolating or through a defined watercourse) your ownership of the land may be limited by the rights of neighbouring landowners to receive the water (i.e. you can’t do anything which cuts off the flow of water). In urban areas utilities may have rights to tunnel under your land for the purpose of providing anything from fiberoptic cables to express trains. So, while in general you own the subsoil, some (or all) of the more commercially valuable normal incidents of ownership may not form part of the package, as it were. I don’t think the cache of Roman coins has much to do with land ownership. You don’t acquire title to something merely because if is found on, or under, your land. Generally the law has ways of determining ownership of property which has been lost, or abandoned, or simply hidden and then forgotten, and the ownership of the land where the property is found may not have much to do with the question. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/4 "2003-01-09T18:33:44Z")
In the parts of the U.S. that I work, if you own the surface and I own the mineral rights, I have the right to evaluate and produce the minerals. So, if I want to drill a gas well, I’ll have to compensate you for surface damages, but you can’t stop me from moving a drilling rig onto your farm and drilling a well. I believe that’s true for most of the U.S. In most of the rest of the world, governments claim ownership of the minerals. ---
**Author:** ![axi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@axi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/axi)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/5 "2003-01-09T18:43:52Z")
If I build a deep dungeon and extend it under my neighbour’s property, I am breaking the law? What about the mines, which, in many places in the UK f.e. were extended beneath cities, often leading in damages in buildings due to soil deformation? ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/6 "2003-01-09T18:48:37Z")
A large wooded area across the street from me was cleared, roads and utilities except water installed, and for sale signs went up. At the same time, the local water district has a moritorium in place, no new hookups until more sources of water are found. Land developer decides to sink a couple of wells and develop his own water supply for the properties. The county has issued all the required permits for the wells and a well digger is brought in. Those that live in large metropolitan areas know that government can move rather slowly at times. It happened in this case. About a year after the wells are dug it was determined that the property owner did not have rights to the water under his property. The water rights are held by a local Indian tribe and they have decided the water rights are worth about a million dollars. That is more than the whole piece of property is worth and to pay it would make the cost of each lot about twice it’s value. 6 years later there are no houses on any of the properties and the roads are blocked off to prevent kids from using the area for racing and partying. ---
**Author:** ![squid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@squid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/7 "2003-01-09T18:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by axi \* > \*\*If I build a deep dungeon and extend it under my neighbour’s property, I am breaking the law? \*\* Would you post the city you live in so i can stay away from you?😛 ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/8 "2003-01-10T05:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TexasPlayboy \* > When you buy land you own that all the way to the center of ther earth and infinitely to the sky… I have read in other threads that there is an implied easement at 500 - 1000 feet above your land for aircraft to fly. In the USA, the FAA has successfully asserted the right to set rules for aircraft at all altitudes. A landowner may have some rights to resist harassing, low-altitude flying, but I don’t believe he has any practical ownership of the sky above his land (in the sense, for example, of seeking compensation for its use). ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/9 "2003-01-10T05:25:35Z")
**Cecil Adams** on [Can I declare a “no-flight zone” over my house?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_136.html) > [@](#): > > For centuries the common- law doctrine was, Cujus est solum, ejus est usque ad coelum et ad inferos–literally, “To whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also to the sky and to the depths.” In other words, you had complete control over everything above and below your property. ---
**Author:** ![wu\_wei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@wu\_wei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wu_wei)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/10 "2003-01-10T21:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > If I build a deep dungeon and extend it under my neighbour’s property, I am breaking the law? Jeez, the timidity of Dungeon Masters today. Back in my day, we’d just load the place up with orcs and maybe an owlbear or two and to hell with the law. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/11 "2003-01-11T07:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RipRiley \* > \*\*I own a plot of land in the US. I’m sure by law I own the underground to a certain depth. > > 1. Anyone know what that is? > \*\* If your deed says that you own subsurface rights, technically it’s to the earth’s core. Kansas City is riddled with underground limestone mines, extending several levels underneath the city. Few people own the subsurface rights to their property. It’s not where Joe Blow Mining can dig into your basement, but they can create caverns underneath what’s considered a reasonable buildable and habitable area for the house, and even rent them as office or storage space after mining is complete. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/12 "2003-01-11T19:04:49Z")
\*\* racer72\*\* Sounds as if the developer started off ignorant. Moral: better to know what you are buying. Or maybe he was aware of the possible problem, and as an entrepreneur just took a risk, and lost one. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/13 "2003-01-11T19:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > Cecil Adams on [Can I declare a “no-flight zone” over my house?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_136.html): > > For centuries the common- law doctrine was, Cujus est solum, > ejus est usque ad coelum et ad inferos–literally, “To > whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also to the sky and to > the depths.” In other words, you had complete control over > everything above and below your property. In the same answer, Cecil notes that this doctrine "was formally given the boot by the U.S. Supreme Court in U.S. v. Causby (1946). " ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/14 "2003-01-11T20:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racer72 \* > \*\*A large wooded area across the street from me was cleared, roads and utilities except water installed, and for sale signs went up. At the same time, the local water district has a moritorium in place, no new hookups until more sources of water are found. Land developer decides to sink a couple of wells and develop his own water supply for the properties. The county has issued all the required permits for the wells and a well digger is brought in. > > Those that live in large metropolitan areas know that government can move rather slowly at times. It happened in this case. About a year after the wells are dug it was determined that the property owner did not have rights to the water under his property. The water rights are held by a local Indian tribe and they have decided the water rights are worth about a million dollars. That is more than the whole piece of property is worth and to pay it would make the cost of each lot about twice it’s value. 6 years later there are no houses on any of the properties and the roads are blocked off to prevent kids from using the area for racing and partying. \*\* The government has nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the various parties to comply with the law and to protect their own rights. I must say that I think the developer was an idiot; you never, never, buy or build until title is CLEAR! ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/15 "2003-01-11T22:03:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MaryEFoo \* > \*\*\*\* racer72_\* > Sounds as if the developer started off ignorant. Moral: better to know what you are buying. > > Or maybe he was aware of the possible problem, and as an entrepreneur just took a risk, and lost one. \*\* No, the developer had thoroughly checked everything out and the county concurred. The problems started when the Indian tribes new 20,000 seat outdoor amphitheater project was halted due by local residents. The tribe decided if they cannot exercise their treaty rights on their own land, they were going to exercise those rights in other places. Both projects are still on hold but the developer may be back in business soon. The local water district has put in water lines to tap into the city of Tacoma’s watershed and that should be online this summer. The locals are expecting a building boom in this area when the moritorium is lifted. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/16 "2003-01-11T23:41:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nametag \* > \*\*The government has nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the various parties to comply with the law and to protect their own rights. I must say that I think the developer was an idiot; you never, never, buy or build until title is CLEAR! \*\* As far as Indian titles and rights are concerned, an examination of the title would not disclose those interests because the title search begins with the patent from the US government, disregarding Indian rights and rights of those claiming through the French and, I suppose, the Spanish. But I know the French for sure. There have been several claims by various Indian tribes and when the courts have found in their favor, settlements must be had; but it’s the federal gvt’s responsibility since they granted the patent in the first place. Some lands in central Illinois were disputed shortly after the US patents by those deriving their titles from the French. Again, settlements had to be made. If you found a hidden cache under your land, you have good title to it as to everyone except the rightful owner. If the rightful owner (or the heirs, devisees, or assigns) never claims it, it’s yours. ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/17 "2003-01-12T00:34:47Z")
I must admit I don’t know too much about surface and mineral land ownership in the US…but I can talk about it as it pertains to Western Canada… When the west was settled the earliest settlers were granted title to both surface and subsurface (always excluding gold and silver and valuable stone.) Surface is loosely defined as anything you can excavate with a shovel, any deeper, and it’s considered mineral rights. As well, the government granted massive tracts of land to the railways to encourage them to build (it worked out to about 1/2 of Western Canada - and they got to pick where, too) They would also sell lands to people, and didn’t withhold the mineral rights. When it was discovered that what was underneath the ground might have value for something other than gold, the government and the railways started withholding the mineral rights, generally around 1910 or so. What that has meant is that the large majority of mineral rights in the west are owned by the provinicial governments, it having been decided many years ago with the British North America Act that natural resources were a provincial responsibility. The second largest holder of land is the company that emerged from the Canadian Pacific Railway. Finally, there are still some freehold owners, increasing in number as you go east… It is now quite rare for the owner of the surface title to still be the owner of the mineral title. ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/underground-land-ownership/147510/18 "2003-01-12T01:47:25Z")
I saw a show about the man in England finding the Roman coins, the History Channel IIRC. According to the show any archaeological finds in England do not belong to the government. BUT, you, the finder, have to sell it to the government. Evidently they get some independent estimators to come up with a fair value. As I remember the show the farmer ended up with a couple million pounds. He certainly seemed happy enough with the outcome.