# Understanding Child Endangerment - Baby left alone in car **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 16, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369 "2010-04-16T17:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/41 "2010-04-16T21:10:23Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > Seven weeks? A baby that age needs to eat about every 2 - 2 1/2 hours. At that point he’d probably been without food for three hours if they fed him immediately before they left home. And who knows how much longer they planned to leave him in there? Hunger probably won’t cause permanent damage but it could and probably would lead to desperate crying, which could lead to choking or vomiting. And the flailing that goes with it could very easily get him tangled up with blankets or straps and hurt him that way. > > I know these are kind of worst case things, but isn’t that why small ones have bigger people to keep an eye on them? So they don’t get into those situations? The state would have to prove the baby was at significant risk of being without proper nutrition, and 2.5 hours without food does not pose a significant risk of harm, IMHO. If flailing was a problem for babies strapped in a car seat, then I would think car seat manufacturers would have serious problems. So, I guess I have a hard time seeing flailing as a significant risk of harm. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/42 "2010-04-16T21:11:40Z")
I don’t know, Bearflag…I think just leaving a child that young unattended is enough to consider it child endangerment. There was no supervision, and no indication of how much longer the baby was going to be unsupervised. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/43 "2010-04-16T21:12:17Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > I’m trying to reconcile the “leaving the kids in the house” case with the car case. In the house case, the youngest child was 2 years old. In this case, the child was only 7 weeks old. Wonder if that’s something to hang a hat on. There was a similar case in my area, where the mother was convicted. > [@](#): > > Rochester, NY – A jury acquitted Nicole Allen on manslaughter charges, but found her guilty of criminally negligent homicide after she left her three young children alone in an apartment shortly before a fire broke out. > > The fire, which started in an apartment on Second Street on September 17, 2008, severely burned all three children, and killed Allen’s eldest daughter, three year-old Kamari Mona Allen-Holmes. Maybe, as the other poster said, it’s that times have changed. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:u73GMN5UKl0J:www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Reaction-to-Allen-Verdict/wSfz7H7UBkeXvgeEdT1vmg.cspx+Nicole+Allen+rochester&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/44 "2010-04-16T21:15:50Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > At that age, in my opinion, simply leaving the baby alone for two and a half hours, under _any_ circumstances, is a risk to the child’s health and safety. They simply cannot be left alone that long. OK, but to convict, the prosecutor will likely need to explain _why_ it’s such a risk. I don’t think the court or the defense will let the prosecutor get away with saying “it’s just dangerous” without explaining _why_ it’s dangerous _in this case_. Again, I’m not trying to defend these creeps, but I see huge pitfalls for the prosecution. I’m trying to think if I was a prosecutor, what would I need to argue to hold these jerks accountable, but the facts are tough here. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/45 "2010-04-16T21:17:42Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > OK, but to convict, the prosecutor will likely need to explain _why_ it’s such a risk. I don’t think the court or the defense will let the prosecutor get away with saying “it’s just dangerous” without explaining _why_ it’s dangerous _in this case_. > > Again, I’m not trying to defend these creeps, but I see huge pitfalls for the prosecution. That’s what I’m saying, I’m not sure if they will have to do that. I think it could be considered the standard of care, so to speak, that a newborn infant is supposed to be supervised by an adult. It’s illegal to leave children unattended, so they could be convicted of breaking that law. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/46 "2010-04-16T21:21:38Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > There was a similar case in my area, where the mother was convicted. > Maybe, as the other poster said, it’s that times have changed. > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:u73GMN5UKl0J:www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Reaction-to-Allen-Verdict/wSfz7H7UBkeXvgeEdT1vmg.cspx+Nicole+Allen+rochester&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a Ah … maybe times have changed. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/47 "2010-04-16T21:39:11Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Again, I’m not trying to defend these creeps, but I see huge pitfalls for the prosecution. I’m trying to think if I was a prosecutor, what would I need to argue to hold these jerks accountable, but the facts are tough here. Not really. There is no doubt that the child was actually left unattended for a fairly long period of time, essentially at the mercy of any passing stranger. Crime statistics for that and/or similar locations could possibly establish an increased risk to an unaccompanied child. It was 54 degrees outside, the child was dressed in only a thin cotton garment with a blanket. In and of itself, that’s a risk to the child’s health. Also, the casino likely has large signs posted all over the parking area warning people not to do exactly this, because it is a crime. For giggles, you could probably get the casino to cough up video of the parents laughing, joking, drinking, etc. That’s probably enough for a misdemeanor conviction. Also probably enough to get the local version of what I’d call Youth Court/DHS involved as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/48 "2010-04-16T21:39:56Z")
Here’s the [article](http://cbs13.com/local/casino.parking.lot.2.1636112.html), by the way. They told officials they were in the casino just long enough to use the restroom, but video cameras proved them wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/49 "2010-04-16T21:44:33Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Here’s the [article](http://cbs13.com/local/casino.parking.lot.2.1636112.html), by the way. They told officials they were in the casino just long enough to use the restroom, but video cameras proved them wrong. Hmmm. That article indicates they are apparently charged under the felony version of the statute. Bond set at $50K each. I agree it might be tough to make a felony charge stick on these facts, but the misdemeanor version seems simple enough. May also be liable for some sort of charge for lying to the cops during the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Kalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/df705f/32.png) [@Kalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalypso)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/50 "2010-04-16T21:47:23Z")
If I were the prosecutor I would argue the 54 degree temperature was a danger to the baby’s health. I’m not readily finding information online about what temperatures can cause hypothermia in infants older than neonates at the moment, but there must be information out there. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/51 "2010-04-16T21:48:04Z")
One thing they have going in their favor is that their names are fun to say: Thuan Nguyen Panfila Phan \<---- sounds like a drug ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/52 "2010-04-16T22:45:58Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > OK, but to convict, the prosecutor will likely need to explain _why_ it’s such a risk. I don’t think the court or the defense will let the prosecutor get away with saying “it’s just dangerous” without explaining _why_ it’s dangerous _in this case_. > > Again, I’m not trying to defend these creeps, but I see huge pitfalls for the prosecution. I’m trying to think if I was a prosecutor, what would I need to argue to hold these jerks accountable, but the facts are tough here. In my decidedly unlegal opinion, I don’t think there actually is an onus on prosecution to prove that there was an imminent danger to the infant; just being alone for two and a half hours in a fairly uncontrolled situation is enough to endanger a child that young, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/53 "2010-04-16T22:51:55Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > In my decidedly unlegal opinion, I don’t think there actually is an onus on prosecution to prove that there was an imminent danger to the infant; just being alone for two and a half hours in a fairly uncontrolled situation is enough to endanger a child that young, as far as I know. As a prosecutor, I could go into court a argue that letting a 10 year old make a baloney sandwich by himself is extremely dangerous, but if I can’t prove the danger in it beyond a reasonable doubt, I doubt I will get very far. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/54 "2010-04-16T22:57:47Z")
The prosecutor must prove the situation in this case either (1) … “causes or permits the life or limb of such child to be endangered, or the health of such child to be injured … or causes … such child to be placed in such situation that its life or limb may be endangered, or its health likely to be injured.” (PENAL CODE 273a) or (2) there are conditions that present a significant risk to the child’s health or safety. (CVC 15620) ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/55 "2010-05-05T23:25:17Z")
Here are a couple of interesting cases in the Sacramento area in the past week: [1.](http://cbs13.com/local/mothers.fire.fairfield.2.1676638.html) Mothers leave kids alone with burning candle. Kids die in fire. Police recommend involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment charges. [2.](http://cbs13.com/local/shooting.placer.county.2.1677300.html) Father, an off-duty cop, fails to notice kid near loaded gun in house. Kid shoots herself and dies. Case forwarded to DA but no recommended charges. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/56 "2010-05-06T00:17:05Z")
FTR, I am appalled by the behavior of every one of the parents cited in this thread, and believe they all deserve prosecution. The so-called “tragedy” of accidental abandonment is every bit as much of a crime as the deliberate abandonment in the OP. That said, I did notice this, > [@TruCelt](#): > > I share a property line with a 7/11 store. The baby monitor is powerful enough that I could still hear her if I went over there while she was napping. Several times I have wanted some little thing which I could easily grab in five minutes and be back without incident. I have never been able to do it. There is just something so unthinkable about leaving her alone in the house, no matter how close I will be; I can’t do it. You don’t really think you’d be wrong to be next door for a couple minutes, right? You’re just describing a visceral feeling? Because… you have a monitor, you’re obviously leaving the room while she’s asleep. Presumably you would move between floors of your house, or answer the front door, right? Would you step outside onto a porch? Walk out to the curb with a bag of trash? (Obviously I don’t know your arrangement, but “I share a property line” implies you own a single-family house.) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/57 "2010-05-06T02:17:57Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > At that age, in my opinion, simply leaving the baby alone for two and a half hours, under _any_ circumstances, is a risk to the child’s health and safety. They simply cannot be left alone that long. Meh, according to my mom I started sleeping all night pretty much immediately [it was my brother who was a hyperactive little git and wanted to eat every hour on the hour] I am more than sure that I woke up either my mom or the nanny if I was wet or hungry, and since I seemed to have slept for significantly more than 2.5 hours as a newborn, constantly ramming a nipple in my mouth didn’t seem to be in order, and I was never a skinny child. ---
**Author:** ![Zulema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zulema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zulema)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/58 "2010-05-06T15:27:57Z")
There is a warning tag on car seats to not leave children unattended in car seats. They are not to be used as infant seats and pose an inherent risk of strangulation from the straps. That could be something the prosecutor could use. Anyone who has had a baby for 7 weeks should know how rearranged they can get in a car seat and should worry about that even if they don’t bother to read or pay attention to warning tags. Babies are like liquid at that age and manage to mold into all sorts of weird configurations when forced to be in the upright angle of a car seat. Mostly they kind of pour downward placing the straps against their neck. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/59 "2010-05-06T15:39:54Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Meh, according to my mom I started sleeping all night pretty much immediately [it was my brother who was a hyperactive little git and wanted to eat every hour on the hour] > > I am more than sure that I woke up either my mom or the nanny if I was wet or hungry, and since I seemed to have slept for significantly more than 2.5 hours as a newborn, constantly ramming a nipple in my mouth didn’t seem to be in order, and I was never a skinny child. I don’t think anyone would claim that leaving a baby in their own crib, in an occupied house/apt. is “leaving them alone” in the sense of “leaving them unattended”. Heck, by that logic, my 5 year old is “left alone” for 12 hours every single day. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369/60 "2010-05-06T15:51:22Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > I was wondering that, too. However, a read an attorney website and found this tidbit where the court found NO criminal negligence: > > (People v. Rodriguez (1961), 186 Cal.App.2d 433.) That case was for a manslaughter charge, wasn’t it? And in the present case, we have child endangerment. Perhaps the two crimes have different degrees of mental culpability? Simple negligence might be enough to support child endangerment but is typically insufficient for manslaughter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/understanding-child-endangerment-baby-left-alone-in-car/536369.md?page=4)