# Undervalued athletes **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955 "2023-10-23T13:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/61 "2023-11-06T02:43:13Z")
Speaking of the Blue Jays… …the player I always think of as “undervalued” is Jose Bautista. Bautista was not as great as some of the athletes mentioned in this thread, but he was a very fine ballplayer who had some great years with the Jays in the 2010s. He had 344 lifetime homers and a 36.7 lifetime WAR, his 2011 season was one for the ages (he led all of baseball in homers, walks, slugging percentage, and OPS); by WAR, his three best seasons were significantly better than any single season David Ortiz ever had, to name one guy whose name has come up in this thread. And where Ortiz was given up on by one team, Bautista was given up on by many. He began in the Pirates organization but they left him unprotected in the Rule 5 draft before the 2004 season. He was taken by the Orioles. A couple months into the season, the Orioles put him on waivers. The Rays claimed him. Less than a month later, the Rays sold his contract to Kansas City. He was then traded to the Mets, who traded him back to the Pirates. Undervalued? Yeah, I think the adjective fits! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/62 "2023-11-07T04:20:07Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > And where Ortiz was given up on by one team, Bautista was given up on by many. He began in the Pirates organization but they left him unprotected in the Rule 5 draft before the 2004 season. He was taken by the Orioles. A couple months into the season, the Orioles put him on waivers. The Rays claimed him. Less than a month later, the Rays sold his contract to Kansas City. He was then traded to the Mets, who traded him back to the Pirates. Undervalued? Yeah, I think the adjective fits! Bautista played for four teams that season; he was only the second player to do that, after Dave Kingman. Kingman was more often OVERvalued than undervalued, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/63 "2023-11-07T20:39:21Z")
The immortal Mike Kilkenny preceded Kingman, pitching for four teams in 1972, though he hardly played for two or three of them. And there may have been somebody else before him, though I don’t have the energy to look it up now. I just think I remember that Kilkenny’s baseball card that year had the trivia question “Who is the only player to play for four teams in a single season?” Very weird coincidence, if I’m recalling it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/64 "2023-11-07T20:43:18Z")
Yeah it’s a longer list than I recalled. Dave Martinez did it too and he was a decent player. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/65 "2023-11-09T01:49:01Z")
I found a scan iof the back of Kilkenny’s 1972 Topps card, or most of it, anyway. I was mostly remembering correctly. The trivia question was “What two AL hurlers pitched for four teams in a single season?” I don’t know the answer because that was the part of the scan that was missing. But really, what a question to appear on the back of the card for a guy who then played for four teams himself. You could make this up, but no one would believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/66 "2023-11-09T01:59:19Z")
Nolan Ryan could make this list. He was originally a relief pitcher for the Mets (he won the series with the Amazin’s in 1969), but didn’t flourish until, on December 10, 1971 , he was traded to the California Angels along with pitcher Don Rose, catcher Francisco Estrada, and outfielder Leroy Stanton for shortstop Jim Fregosi (who later managed Ryan in Anaheim). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/67 "2023-11-09T04:07:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Wade Boggs won or nearly won 5 consecutive batting titles in the minors before the Red Sox begrudgingly let him replace Carney Lansford and Dave Stapleton on the MLB roster. He went on to collect 91.4 WAR over his career (leading the league 3 consecutive years), yet didn’t earn a single first place vote for MVP. Boggs is kinda more in line of how I thought of the topic. He was left in the minors at least a year too long. He was CLEARLY a terrific hitter. But no one could have known Nolan Ryan would become what he did after the went to the Angels. He was a bad pitcher with the Mets and was not really _young_. No one could have known Jose Bautista would become a perennial All-Star mid career. The Phillies gave away Fergie Jenkins for a bag of baseballs, but he was a B prospect and when it was made the trade didn’t seem nearly as horrible as it very quickly turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2024, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/68 "2024-01-20T18:15:22Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Lou Brock came up to the majors with the Cubs in 1961, and played 2+ seasons for them, batting around .250 in that span. He was traded to the Cards in June of 1964 for an average pitcher named Ernie Broglio. He batted .348 the rest of the season and helped St. Louis win the World Series. He was elected to the HOF in 1985. Broglio went 7-20 with the Cubs over the next 3 seasons and was out of baseball by 1967, when the Cards won another World Series. But Broglio won 18 games the year before and was better than average. He started out slowly in 1964, but there was no reason to think it was anything but a slow start. As for Brock, stolen bases were not prized at the time. Also, he was a left fielder, and the Cubs already had a future HOF in left field. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/69 "2024-01-20T21:07:55Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > But Broglio won 18 games the year before and was better than average. He started out slowly in 1964, but there was no reason to think it was anything but a slow start. Exactly so. Broglio was only 28 at the time of the trade, and he was definitely “better than average.” He’d finished second in voting for the NL Cy Young in 1960, won 12 games with a 3.00 ERA in '62, and 18 games with a 2.99 ERA in '63. Wins Over Replacement wasn’t a thing back then, but Baseball Reference retroactively calculates Broglio’s bWAR as 6.1 in '62 and 3.3 in '63. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > As for Brock, stolen bases were not prized at the time. This is very true. In '63 (the year before the trade), the stolen base leaders in the NL were Maury Wills and Vada Pinson, tied at 40; Brock was in 8th place, at 24. He also wasn’t tremendously successful at stealing while with the Cubs: he was thrown out on 31% of his steal attempts while with Chicago. And, his bWAR was only 1.0 in '62 and 2.6 in '63. In retrospect, obviously, it was a tremendously lopsided trade. Few would have predicted that Broglio wouldn’t pitch nearly as well with the Cubs as he had with the Cards (his ERA during his time with the Cubs was 5.40, two full runs over what he had with St. Louis), or that he would be out of baseball by age 31; similarly, few would have predicted that Brock would become a consistent .280+ hitter, or that he would become a more proficient base-stealer. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/70 "2024-01-21T22:25:57Z")
The 2003-2004 Pistons were kind of undervalued as a team, if such a thing can exist. Mainly because their primary force was defense, not offense. Average points scored against for the season was: 84 They also held teams to under 70 multiple times, including a 5-game streak of doing so. That’s right, 5 straight games where teams only scored 60-something points. Stunning. To be fair, they did win the championship, but I think they were an outright stellar team. It didn’t last, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/71 "2024-04-16T03:06:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This person was well rewarded in terms of cash and trophies, those that know the game rate him extremely highly, but the wider public probably don’t think of him at all when considering the greats of the game. > > [Paul Scholes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Scholes) My initial thought was, well he was Premiership Team of the Decade honoree and he has 66 England caps, so how unappreciated could he be? Then I read some of the quotes from superstar players on his wiki calling him the best midfielder of his generation - something I never thought of him as - and I suppose you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2024, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/72 "2024-04-17T21:53:31Z")
Pretty much everyone says something nice about another player when asked. The number of people that would actually rate him as best of his generation, over Zidane, is vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/73 "2024-04-20T10:00:47Z")
People are generally very reluctant to call anyone the best. If you look at quotes about Lewis Hamilton you will very rarely see drivers refer to him as the GOAT, though statistically he undisputably is. Oh, and here are _Zidane’s_ thoughts on Scholes: “Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation.” [Zinedine Zidane: Paul Scholes was my toughest rival | Football | Sport | Express.co.uk](https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/250095/Zinedine-Zidane-Paul-Scholes-was-my-toughest-rival) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/74 "2024-04-21T20:10:11Z")
I dunno about that. People call Messi the GOAT all the time. Zidane isn’t a boastful guy. If he was excluding himself, then maybe, but I can’t imagine seeing Scholes above Zidane on any ranking vs people just responding to “hey, Scholes was great, wasn’t he?” He was also forced out of the England midfield in the prime of his career because the manager preferred Lampard and Gerrard. (Almost as stacked a midfield as contemporaneous Spain!) Not something you’d expect of the best of his generation. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/75 "2024-04-21T22:05:08Z")
In the recent tennis era, most people remember Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. If pressed to answer who has won the most grand slams in their era aside from them, most would probably say Andy Murray. That is right, but why is Stanislas Wawrinka so quickly dismissed? He has won the same amount of grand slams as Murray, but won each of his at different tournaments. He’s just one shy from having won all of them. He was obviously helped by the fact that his countrymen is Roger Federer, who is also his friend and training partner. I mean, he got to practice against the best and what do you know, he managed to win 3 grand slams himself? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/76 "2024-04-21T23:27:54Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > That is right, but why is Stanislas Wawrinka so quickly dismissed? As only a casual fan of the sport, I recognized Wawrinka’s name when you mentioned it, but I hadn’t heard or thought about him in years. Reading through his Wikipedia entry, I can think of a couple of reasons why he’s overlooked: - A late bloomer – his highest ranking was #3, and when he finally reached that point, he was nearly 29 years old - A fairly short, and late, career peak – it looks like most of his successes came in a five-year span (2013-17), at the end of which, he was already 32 - Playing in the same era as, and being overshadowed by, the Big Three, as you note, plus Murray, who had a longer peak, plus was the favorite son of England’s and Scotland’s tennis fans for many years ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/77 "2024-04-22T06:32:46Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > He was also forced out of the England midfield in the prime of his career because the manager preferred Lampard and Gerrard. (Almost as stacked a midfield as contemporaneous Spain!) Not something you’d expect of the best of his generation. That’s not how I remember it, and Wikipedia backs up my recollection - they were practically different generations. Scholes retired from international football at the relatively young age of 29, in order to focus on his club football and his family. It was only then that Gerrard and Lampard established themselves in the England team, in 2004. I don’t have a strong opinion on the matter, they were all amazingly talented footballers, but it’s not correct to suggest Scholes was forced out by them. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/78 "2024-04-22T12:26:52Z")
I disagree with your interpretation of what wikipedia says. Scholes was moved out of his natural position in favor of the other two and he retired rather than play second fiddle. “Spending time with family” is a well worn euphemism for athletes as well as politicians. Relevant section of wiki: > [@](#): > > Immediately prior to Euro 2004, however, Scholes was played out of position on the left midfield to accommodate the pairing of [Steven Gerrard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Gerrard) and [Frank Lampard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lampard) in central midfield, starting on the left for the last five matches of his international career.[[72]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Scholes#cite_note-woe-72) Scholes announced his retirement from international football in August 2004, citing his family life and his club career with Manchester United as being more important. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/79 "2024-04-22T13:23:39Z")
It’s not my interpretation of Wikipedia, it’s my recollection of events (having followed English football for the last 30 years) - I just checked Wiki to remind myself of the exact time line and context. Scholes was past his absolute peak by 2004 and the other two were just starting theirs. So it’s not a fair comparison in the first place. But at the time, England had 4 world-class midfielders (Beckham being the other), none of whom normally played on the left. The manager decided to simply pick the best players and Scholes probably had the most skills to cope with being put out of their preferred position. Having said all that, there is probably some truth in what you say in that Scholes may have felt he wasn’t likely retain his place through to the next major tournament 2 years later, and so decided to step down on his own terms. That’s not the same as being forced out, and due to the age difference doesn’t demonstrate the other two were better overall. The main point is that Scholes isn’t the first (or maybe even tenth) player most people think of when naming great midfielders. But he is rated very highly by his peers, which says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955/80 "2024-04-22T13:48:09Z")
Looking at his PL stats, Scholes peaked at 28, so you’re technically correct that he was past it at 29. I absolutely agree that Scholes was a great midfielder; I never took exception with that. I believe I said he was the best out of himself, Giggs, Beckham, and Keane, which is very high praise. I’m just strongly disagreeing that he was the best of his generation, which is very very clearly Zidane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undervalued-athletes/991955.md?page=5)