# Undocumented immigrants crossing border - what \*should\* be the response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213 "2018-11-08T21:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/21 "2018-11-08T22:49:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How is enforcing borders not protecting territory? Are the immigrants intending to aggressively seize territory and claim it for their home country? > [@octopus](#): > > You think it’s perfectly valid if 10 million Russians want to move into Estonia? I can’t possibly answer that. That’s exactly how Texas was stolen from Mexico. A large wave of American immigrants illegally moved into Texas until they outnumbered the native Mexican population and became strong enough to mount an independence movement. Was this “valid”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/22 "2018-11-08T22:52:38Z")
Send 'em on over. I need to hire more people in order to keep up with my demand. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/23 "2018-11-08T23:02:56Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Are the immigrants intending to aggressively seize territory and claim it for their home country? > > I can’t possibly answer that. > > That’s exactly how Texas was stolen from Mexico. A large wave of American immigrants illegally moved into Texas until they outnumbered the native Mexican population and became strong enough to mount an independence movement. Was this “valid”? Was it? If you are for open borders that’s your prerogative. Don’t pretend it’s a natural right or won’t lead to huge problems. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/24 "2018-11-09T00:32:23Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > We’re talking about immigration. **A nation’s right to defend its territory is not relevant to the discussion**. …What…? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/25 "2018-11-09T00:33:28Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > You document them. > > You say “welcome to the USA, you’re gonna need to prove who you are while you’re here, prob more than you ever have had to before.” You ask to see any ID from where they are from, if they have any. You give them a temporary worker ID/SSN (if theyre here to work). You point them to the DMV so they can get a proper state ID (and get a taste of American bureaucracy). You start that oh-so-necessary paper trail. You make it unnecessary to steal someone else’s identity, or create a fraudulent one. Indeed. They come to the U.S. because there are people in the U.S. willing to hire them, and it’s stupid to pretend otherwise. Keeping them “illegal”, though, is a convenient excuse to keep wages and working conditions low, and feeds the whole police-state mentality slowly and perpetually creeping up on America. So legalize them - create a special immigrant worker status not bound by minimum-wage laws and numerous other regulations in recognition that the jobs they’re coming here to do are crappy jobs that Americans citizens simply _won’t_ do. Collect biometric data and keep and share records across states. Put a minimal payroll tax on their work, so people who hire them to save money at least put a few bucks into the public kitty for the privilege. Add a 1% or so tax on remittances so if the workers are here specifically to send money back to their home countries, at least the U.S. gets a cut. Start living up that “land of the free” crap, already, America. As it is, you sure luuuurve arresting people, probably at a higher rate than King George could have imagined, even at his nuttiest. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/26 "2018-11-09T00:38:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Indeed. They come to the U.S. because there are people in the U.S. willing to hire them, and it’s stupid to pretend otherwise. Keeping them “illegal”, though, is a convenient excuse to keep wages and working conditions low, and feeds the whole police-state mentality slowly and perpetually creeping up on America. > > So legalize them - create a special immigrant worker status not bound by minimum-wage laws and numerous other regulations in recognition that the jobs they’re coming here to do are crappy jobs that Americans citizens simply _won’t_ do. Collect biometric data and keep and share records across states. Put a minimal payroll tax on their work, so people who hire them to save money at least put a few bucks into the public kitty for the privilege. Add a 1% or so tax on remittances so if the workers are here specifically to send money back to their home countries, at least the U.S. gets a cut. > > Start living up that “land of the free” crap, already, America. As it is, you sure luuuurve arresting people, probably at a higher rate than King George could have imagined, even at his nuttiest. Some of those are workable ideas. I’m not a fan on taxing remittances though. I’m also not a fan of a minimum wage waiver. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/27 "2018-11-09T00:44:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (Not necessarily related to the migrant caravan in Mexico) > > Many Trump opponents are very vocal about opposing the building of a border wall, and about opposing the use of forces to stop migrants from entering. But - what is the proposed alternative? > Suppose (hypothetically, but surely common in real life): A number of undocumented immigrants arrive at the Mexico-US border and begin crossing over into American soil. \*\*\*Something \*\*\*has to be done. What should the protocol be? > > 1. Let them come in > 2. Keep them in a temporary living facility until their asylum claims are processed and approved or denied > 3. Turn them away, with force if need be > Those are the only three solutions that the situation presents, as a practical matter. Which should it be, or should it be another? Got into a HUGE argument about this a couple weeks ago when I went to a family reunion (and you have to consider the irony of a bunch of Hispanics arguing FOR Trump and stopping the illegal threat when my family originally came to this country…illegally :smack:). I don’t think there are only 3 solutions to this problem and I think the one most likely to help in the long run is one you didn’t mention. I tried to mention it in my own argument with the family, but was shouted down, so I’ll take this opportunity to lay it out. Basically, the root cause of WHY illegals are coming to the US is twofold, IMHO. First, the issue is lack of good, solid jobs in Mexico and several Central American country…with emphasis on both good and solid. In Mexico’s case this was actually starting to get addressed with NAFTA, though sadly corruption is still a central issue. Even with that corruption, however, I think the stats were showing that illegal immigration was down from Obama’s first term onward with a slow, steady decrease in the numbers. That said, we have a major issue in Central America, and frankly, WE are a major contributor to the cause (though not completely). A lot of the nations in Central America are on the edge right now, party because of economic conditions in the region, partly because of Venezuela’s total melt down, with millions of Venezuelan’s fleeing their country and causing a refugee issue in neighboring states, and party because of the perennial drug wars and warlords wreaking havoc in the region. The last one is squarely on us, and it’s one of the primary reasons for the first one. Venezuela is on them with the US being, at best, peripherally responsible (and I think that’s pretty minimal). So, a large part of the illegal issue stems directly from our own fuckups. If we could figure out how to curb the illegal drug trade and warlords it would help. Investment in the region following that would help even more…sort of China’s Belt and Road™, but less evil. The second issue that isn’t as central or core is our idiotic visa laws. US agriculture especially relies on (illegal) workers paid low wages and under the table. Many of these specific workers don’t actually WANT to be US citizens…they just want to work and send the money back to their families, usually migrant work. Yet we throw up all sorts of barriers to this for some stupid reason, even though our businesses just wink and nod and then do it anyway. There is a need on both ends for this yet, again, we throw up barriers. Instead of barriers do it openly and legally…grant migrant work visas (sort of like the old bracero program…we HAD this, but got rid of it due to freaking racism and bigotry :smack:…:smack::smack::smack:). Do those two things and you fix this problem…assuming it IS a major issue that needs to be fixed (I think both that it isn’t, and was fixing itself until our idiot in charge started to fuck with NAFTA AND that we could take the above steps to fix it so that it would be even better…AND we’d freaking make money like good capitalists should). ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/28 "2018-11-09T01:02:45Z")
It **IS** legal to show up. It just isn’t legal to stay without documents and without permission. Ten thousand (twenty thousand? thirty thousand? whatever) new desk workers at the border, processing applications. Everyone who shows up gets their application processed within three days guaranteed. Not a wall, a row of desks. Bureaucracy, not hostility and suspicion. If you hate Mexicans, then YOU go back where YOU came from, and a deserving Mexican will take the place you squandered. This is not so hard. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/29 "2018-11-09T01:07:21Z")
this is easy …. ive always said all you need to do is put about 5 or so ellis island type of processing centers around the country where they can stay until you do a health and back ground check and if they pass give them an tax id number or “green card” and say well welcome to the usa …… just like 70 percent of this countries great and grandparents did ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/30 "2018-11-09T01:10:51Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > It **IS** legal to show up. It just isn’t legal to stay without documents and without permission. > > Ten thousand (twenty thousand? thirty thousand? whatever) new desk workers at the border, processing applications. Everyone who shows up gets their application processed within three days guaranteed. > > Not a wall, a row of desks. Bureaucracy, not hostility and suspicion. If you hate Mexicans, then YOU go back where YOU came from, and a deserving Mexican will take the place you squandered. > > This is not so hard. Not everyone south of the border is Mexican and territorial integrity is not hate. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/31 "2018-11-09T01:27:34Z")
Do you imagine Guatemala is going start claiming parts of the US now? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/32 "2018-11-09T01:44:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Some of those are workable ideas. I’m not a fan on taxing remittances though. I’m also not a fan of a minimum wage waiver. If you don’t tax remittances, how are you going to pay for Trump’s wall? The more critical element is the minimum-wage waiver - without it, there will still be the employers who will offer sub-minimum jobs because Americans simply don’t want to pay more for produce and simply don’t want to work, even at minimum wage, to pick produce. I don’t think you can have a fully-legalized workforce _and_ minimum-wages for all _and_ low prices for food. Pick two. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/33 "2018-11-09T01:57:50Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Do you imagine Guatemala is going start claiming parts of the US now? Ask Ukraine if they are in favor of another round of annexation due to demographics. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/34 "2018-11-09T01:59:01Z")
For those who think the wall is a good idea, let me pose a question. What do you suppose would be the effect if, instead of building a wall, one with both a large capital as well as recurring cost, instead we invested the money (something like $20-40 BILLION dollars) in Mexico and US/Mexican businesses (as well as countries in central and south America)? To put it in slightly different terms, why do you suppose China invests in building factories in many lower wage countries near them? I’m not talking here of just giving those countries money to do with as they please, but focused investment to augment what US companies are already doing. What do you suppose would be the effect on what was already a slowing illegal immigration problem if we build supply chains and manufacturing centers in those low wage countries? And what do you suppose that might do for our own export markets to open up those potential expanding markets, as people in the region get jobs and have money they can spend? What do you suppose that might mean wrt stability and corruption? Again, to put this in a slightly different context, what was the effect on opening up markets, building supply chains and manufacturing capabilities and increasing the wealth of the nation as a whole on, oh, say South Korea? This could be a huge opportunity for the US to do what China is doing but hopefully, less evil (and less stupid). Not only do we augment our own supply chains and tap into cheaper labor that is right next door to us but we open up potential expanding markets for us…AND, just as an afterthought, we solve the ‘problem’ of illegal immigration, or mitigate it to the point where it’s an extremely minor issue. Or, we could build a huge white elephant that costs us tons of capital and is a drain on our resources and really doesn’t solve anything…just makes it more difficult for some illegals to enter the country in the way they were before, but doesn’t really solve anything at a fundamental level. What sounds like a better long term solution to you supposed conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/35 "2018-11-09T01:59:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you don’t tax remittances, how are you going to pay for Trump’s wall? > > The more critical element is the minimum-wage waiver - without it, there will still be the employers who will offer sub-minimum jobs because Americans simply don’t want to pay more for produce and simply don’t want to work, even at minimum wage, to pick produce. > > I don’t think you can have a fully-legalized workforce _and_ minimum-wages for all _and_ low prices for food. Pick two. The wall? Print more dollars. I’m not a fan of minimum wage but I’m less of a fan of the farce we currently have. So if I have to pick 2 I’ll pick minimum wage and legality. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/36 "2018-11-09T02:17:09Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > And weren’t we at something close to net-zero immigration (at least from Mexico?) under Obama? We were actually at [net- **negative** immigration from Mexico in the last years of the Obama administration.](http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/). ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/37 "2018-11-09T03:21:50Z")
Many of you don’t understand Latinos. They don’t want to leave their country. They are proud people. But, they are hungry. For frijoles, employment, health care. For Latinos the family is paramount. They don’t want to leave their families. But they are forced to. Americans are different. They move to other cities, states all the time. Leaving their families and loved ones. Latinos are not like that. Sure there are some that move to tourist towns to make a better wage. But most Latinos I know have never been outside their pueblito. The family is paramount! Since 1986 the US of A has spent over 350 BILLION dollars protecting the southern border. Has it accomplished anything? This money would be better spent investing in factories in Central America. There would be no need for a wall. Is there a wall on the northern border? No, because Canadians are happy there. This solution is so logical. Let the 40,000 border patrol agents and ICE people plant flowers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/38 "2018-11-09T03:35:05Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > We’re talking about immigration. A nation’s right to defend its territory is not relevant to the discussion. This makes zero sense. Think about it. Emigrate from where? Immigrate into where? These places have borders that define them. Is this really not known to you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/39 "2018-11-09T03:37:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Basically #2, except asylum is not the only option. There should be a process by which they can become legal immigrants, without having to completely send them back where they came. Granted, asylum should get priority, but our founding principle as a nation is immigration, and we should not turn our back on that. > > I’m not opposed to granting them temporary visas while they apply to be full immigrants. They’re only a threat if we can’t keep track of them. > > But this is not open borders. Our states have open borders, where they can’t even stop you going between the two. This is closed borders, but without treating immigrants as some sort of threat. They are, rather, an asset. People should only not be accepted for an actual cause. At what point to you send the letters to all those waiting patiently going through the process legally? You know th e one that starts, “Dear Sucker…” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213/40 "2018-11-09T03:39:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What actually kicks in are property rights, and a right to be protected. Both of these are rights of citizens and residents. That said, there is more than one way to enforce those rights, and it doesn’t have to require having closed borders. How about for those whose property is on the border? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/undocumented-immigrants-crossing-border-what-should-be-the-response/824213.md?page=3)