# Unequal Law Enforcement: A Problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282 "2008-03-13T21:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/1 "2008-03-13T21:10:05Z")
It is well-established (and even if you disagree, let’s just stipulate) that some crimes are unequally enforced against certain groups. Consider, for example, drug crimes. While study after study shows that white people use and posses drugs at the same rates as black people, far more black people get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes. Racist aspects of policing and prosecution probably play some role here, but I think the best explanation is that it is simply easier to catch drug-users in an urban park than in some kid’s suburban basement (and also far easier to prosecute poor people than rich people). I’m not much interested in debating the factual specifics of this phenomenon, but rather whether people think that, if true, it represents a problem. Is it bad in itself that more young black men get criminal records for a crime committed with equal frequency by young white men? Is there some social value which suggests that policing and prosecution should correlate proportionally to rates of criminal activity within various sub-populations? Or is it OK for the police to basically always go after the low-hanging fruit? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/2 "2008-03-13T22:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] It is well-established (and even if you disagree, let’s just stipulate) that some crimes are unequally enforced against certain groups. Consider, for example, drug crimes. While study after study shows that white people use and posses drugs at the same rates as black people, far more black people get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes. Racist aspects of policing and prosecution probably play some role here, but I think the best explanation is that it is simply easier to catch drug-users in an urban park than in some kid’s suburban basement (and also far easier to prosecute poor people than rich people). I’m not much interested in debating the factual specifics of this phenomenon, but rather whether people think that, if true, it represents a problem. Is it bad in itself that more young black men get criminal records for a crime committed with equal frequency by young white men? Is there some social value which suggests that policing and prosecution should correlate proportionally to rates of criminal activity within various sub-populations? Or is it OK for the police to basically always go after the low-hanging fruit? [/QUOTE] First, you’ll have to actually establish that whites and blacks do illegal drugs at the same rate. Then, you’ll have to establish that blacks and whites are doing the same types of drugs at an equal rate (do you really believe that posession of marijuana, for example, should be prosecuted as often as posession of crack?) Then we can get to the meat of the argument. No, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong that criminals who are easier to arrest and prosecute are arrested and prosecuted more often than criminals who are more difficult to arrest and prosecute. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/3 "2008-03-13T22:52:46Z")
Yeah, this is one of those groupings of factual claims myself and a lot of others are probably _inclined_ to believe–but if we’re going to have a genuine debate about this I think we need to actually see evidence for them. Just because what you’re saying “seems like something that is probably true” doesn’t mean it is, I honestly would like to see some hard facts on this. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/4 "2008-03-14T02:08:11Z")
I have no doubt that _in general_ the poor are easier to convict than the wealthy. I’m not going to waste time searching for a cite. I think that probably crosses racial lines. Does wealth buy more of a chance for justice or does it delay it? And does the race of the accused insure swift justice or delay/deny it? Why aren’t jurors and judges blindfolded? ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/5 "2008-03-14T03:38:43Z")
> [@](#): > > While study after study shows that white people use and posses drugs at the same rates as black people, far more black people get arrested and prosecuted for these crimes. Yes, forgive me for doing this so early, but cite? I’ll play along and pretend that some crimes are enforced unequally for certain groups (since that’s the scenario you’ve chosen to debate), but I’d like to see some numbers first. > [@](#): > > Racist aspects of policing and prosecution probably play some role here, but I think the best explanation is that it is simply easier to catch drug-users in an urban park than in some kid’s suburban basement (and also far easier to prosecute poor people than rich people). If your first assertation is true, then it may indeed be the case that it’s easier to catch drug users out in the open than somewhere where you’d need a warrant or probable cause. > [@](#): > > Is it bad in itself that more young black men get criminal records for a crime committed with equal frequency by young white men? I’m gonna go with no on this one, simply because of your earlier suggestion. If you’ve got the same crime going on in the same place by a black guy and a white guy, and only the black guy gets arrested, then yeah there’s a problem. But if it’s just a simple matter of one user doing it out in the open vs. one user doing it somewhere more secluded, then I don’t see the racial implication, or the problem. > [@](#): > > Or is it OK for the police to basically always go after the low-hanging fruit? I mean, what do you want them to do, absent a search warrant? I’d say that law enforcement is doing a pretty good job with what they have to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/6 "2008-03-14T04:01:26Z")
Again, I’m not interested in debating the facts. If you like, treat it as a fanciful hypothetical. I’m interested in the principles at play here. I should also make clear that I don’t have a strong position here, which is why I’m asking. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > But if it’s just a simple matter of one user doing it out in the open vs. one user doing it somewhere more secluded, then I don’t see the racial implication, or the problem. Well, one problem is that it creates racial divisions, even if the policy itself isn’t racial. It is one of many factors that make it harder for young black men to succeed than identical young white men. It also basically means that you can commit the crime if you’re rich enough to get away with it. Something about that seems problematic. You bring up an obvious point which is that even if we don’t like it, what would we do to change it? I don’t have any good answer. I suppose if we think the disproportionate aspects of policing a certain crime result in more social ills than the commission of the crime, it would force us to reevaluate the very crime itself. Or, if we conclude that the crime outweighs the impact of unequal policing, we could also give the police more money, so they can afford to police all who violate the law and not just the poor. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/7 "2008-03-14T04:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Well, one problem is that it creates racial divisions, even if the policy itself isn’t racial. It is one of many factors that make it harder for young black men to succeed than identical young white men. It also basically means that you can commit the crime if you’re rich enough to get away with it. Something about that seems problematic. [/QUOTE] Err… what I was saying was– Law enforcement has a much easier time identifying drug users in public. If more black kids are smoking pot in public than white kids, then I don’t care if the statistics skew that way. Similarly, if more white kids were smoking pot in public than black kids, same deal. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/8 "2008-03-14T04:18:51Z")
[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace] Err… what I was saying was– Law enforcement has a much easier time identifying drug users in public. If more black kids are smoking pot in public than white kids, then I don’t care if the statistics skew that way. Similarly, if more white kids were smoking pot in public than black kids, same deal. [/QUOTE] Yes, I understood what you were saying. You don’t see how my statement is responsive to that? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/9 "2008-03-14T04:54:00Z")
To help the OP a bit with some cites: [1](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-05.htm) . Drug usage amongst Whites and Blacks: > [@](#): > > The disproportionate rates at which black drug offenders are sent to prison originate in racially disproportionate rates of arrest.72 Contrary to public belief, the higher arrest rates of black drug offenders do not reflect higher rates of drug law violations. Whites, in fact, commit more drug crimes than blacks. But the war on drugs has been waged in ways that have had the foreseeable consequence of disproportionately targeting black drug offenders. > > Blacks had long been arrested for drug offenses at higher rates than whites. Throughout the 1970s, for example, blacks were approximately twice as likely as whites to be arrested for drug-related offenses. By 1988, however, with national anti-drug efforts in full force, blacks were arrested on drug charges at five times the rate of whites.73 Nationwide, blacks constituted 37 percent of all drug arrestees;74 in large urban areas, blacks constituted 53 percent of all drug arrestees.75 > > The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services calculates drug use trends from data gathered through the federal National Household Survey on Drug Abuse (NHSDA).79 In a report based on NHSDA data for 1991, 1992, and 1993, SAMHSA estimated that 3.1 percent of non-Hispanic blacks and 2.4 percent of non-Hispanic whites over the age of 12 had used cocaine in the past year. Because there are far more whites than blacks in the national population, these use rates translate into 3,727,680 non-Hispanic whites who had used cocaine compared to 720,130 non-Hispanic blacks.80 That is, there were five times as many non-Hispanic whites as blacks who were cocaine users. > > According to the most recent NHSDA survey, in 1998 there were an estimated 9.9 million whites (72 percent of all users) and 2.0 million blacks (15 percent) who were current illicit drug users in 1998.81 There were almost five times as many current white marijuana users as black and four times as many white cocaine users. Almost three times as many whites had ever used crack as blacks. Among those who had used crack at least once in the past year, 462,000 were white and 324,000 were black.82 Only among current crack users did the number of blacks exceed the number of whites – and this was a change from previous years in which the number of current white crack users had exceeded the number of black users (Table 17).83 SAMHSA also estimated that in 1998 there were 4,934,000 whites who used marijuana on 51 or more days in the past year, compared to 1,102,000 blacks, and 321,000 whites who had used cocaine on 51 or more days in the past year compared to 171,999 blacks84 > > The comparison of racial proportions of drug users and drug arrests in the period 1979 to 1998 reveals a markedly higher arrest rate of black drug offenders compared to both whites and to the black proportion of the drug using population (Table 18). The percentage of current drug users who were black and white did not vary significantly in this twenty-year period. Among those arrested on drug charges, however, the percentage of blacks rose markedly, and the percentage of whites decreased correspondingly. For each year, the percentage of black drug arrests was at least double the percentage of blacks among current drug users. Whites, conversely, were under-arrested; that is, they constituted a smaller percent of drug arrests than they did of drug users. [2](http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/minorities/index.html) . This cite (for high schools only) show that the rate of drug use amongst Whites is higher than Blacks for every single category except current and lifetime marijuana use. Whites, as a group, use more cocaine, heroin, meth, inhalants, steroids, and Ecstasy. They use more both as a percentage of their total population, and in raw numbers. [3](http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED338738&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED338738) . > [@](#): > > This paper analyzes data from an annual survey of high school seniors for racial and ethnic differences in the use of licit and illicit drugs. Data from 14 nationally representative surveys of high school seniors from 1976 through 1989 are used. The surveys, conducted in 130 schools polling 17,000 students each year, are described. Throughout the period, Native Americans had the highest prevalence rates for use of illicit drugs except cocaine, for frequent use of alcohol, and for use of cigarettes. **White students had the next highest prevalence rates for most drugs. Asian Americans had the lowest prevalence rates, Black students had prevalence levels nearly as low, except for marijuana, and the Hispanic groups were mostly in the intermediate ranges, except for a relatively high prevalence of cocaine use among the males.** Trend patterns for most forms of drug use have been similar across subgroups, with the following two notable exceptions: (1) cocaine use increases somewhat more than average among Hispanic seniors and less than average among Black seniors; and (2) the proportions smoking cigarettes have declined more sharply among Black than among White seniors, resulting in greater Black-White differences in recent years. Multivariate analyses indicate that subgroup differences in drug use cannot be attributed to background factors such as family composition, parents’ education, region, or rural-urban distinctions. Study data are presented in 20 tables. A list of 51 references is included. (Author/JB) [4](http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/archive/drug_abuse.shtml). > [@](#): > > Rates of current illicit drug use among the major racial/ethnic groups in 2001 were 7.2 percent for whites, 6.4 percent for Hispanics, and 7.4 percent for blacks. The rate was highest among American Indians/Alaska Natives (9.9 percent) and persons reporting more than one race (12.6 percent). Asians had the lowest rate. So Whites tend to use most types of drugs more than Black people both as a percentage of their total pop. and in raw numbers. However, their arrest and convictions rates are far lower. They also, according to the first cite (based on some safe assumptions) sell drugs more frequently, and are “under arrested”. Based on those numbers, the population of people in jail should roughly similar to the national population if enforcement was equal. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/10 "2008-03-14T05:48:06Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Why aren’t jurors and judges blindfolded? [/QUOTE] In case you meant this as a serious question: Because the main task of a jury (and a judge, in a non-jury trial) is deciding who is telling the truth. Especially as regarding the guilt or not of the defendant. People base a whole lot of their decisions on truthfulness on how they see a witness testifying. To blindfold them would make their decisions about who is telling the truth a lot less reliable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/11 "2008-03-14T05:59:38Z")
Economics addresses this. If racial profiling is actually socio-economic class driven, (same with racially unequal “rates” of imprisonment for crime) then there’s no legal system problem whatsoever- it’s mechanistically reflecting an existing unequal racial wealth distribution. Hence, no legal problem- law enforcement is blind to race but not socio-economic status. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/12 "2008-03-14T06:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] I’m not much interested in debating the factual specifics of this phenomenon, but rather whether people think that, if true, it represents a problem. [/QUOTE] Of course it’s a problem. Aside from destroying plenty of people’s lives, it undermines the law, and moves us further from equality. The most troubling issue is that it plays into the racial narrative we have in this country. The one that makes people fear, despise, underestimate, demonize, pity, fetishize, or cater to Black people instead of just treating us like everyone else. It’s a problem because Black people become the face of crime when that is not the case. Same thing happens with welfare or affirmative action, two things that more White people utilize than Black people. So long as our policies strengthen this narrative while subverting justice, it will be a huge problem. [QUOTE=Richard Parker] Is it bad in itself that more young black men get criminal records for a crime committed with equal frequency by young white men? Is there some social value which suggests that policing and prosecution should correlate proportionally to rates of criminal activity within various sub-populations? [/QUOTE] Generally, I think this should be the case. Obviously, certain outside forces may effect that, but I think it should be roughly equal based on equal enforcement. [QUOTE=Richard Parker] Or is it OK for the police to basically always go after the low-hanging fruit? [/QUOTE] They generally do, and that is understandable. The problem is that many of the worst bad guys (Black or White) are not low-hanging fruit. The guys bringing drugs into the country for street dealers to sell are the real problem. It’s the equivalent of continually putting a bucket under a leaking pipe rather than fixing it. Yeah, it prevents the floor from getting wet, but it doesn’t fix the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/13 "2008-03-14T14:00:58Z")
One concept I’ve seen argued is that the reason certain drugs become targets of enforcement in the U.S. in the first place is their association with ‘undesirable’ minority groups (opium with Asian immigrants, crack with poor urban blacks, etc.). Now, though, the major enforcement focus seems to be moving toward meth (or maybe it just seems that way to me here in Missouri), a drug primarily associated with whites. Could this be a signal that we’re moving past the era where the ‘worst’ drugs were determined by which race used them? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/14 "2008-03-17T01:54:02Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] It also basically means that you can commit the crime if you’re rich enough to get away with it. Something about that seems problematic. [/QUOTE] I agree, but that happens everywhere. A few examples off of the top of my head: Speeding tickets. $300 hits my wallet and makes it ache. Bill Gates could pay his fine and wipe his nose with an extra $100. DUI license suspensions: When I was young and stupid, I almost lost my job because I couldn’t drive for three months. A rich person could hire a full time driver, or wouldn’t need to work for three months. A rich person doesn’t need to rob convenience stores to feed a drug addiction and doesn’t have to go to jail for decades, etc. So, while I can understand the sympathy you are feeling for these youth smoking marijuana in the park vs. the others at home, I don’t see a solution. Let people use drugs in urban parks? Surely not. And the rich people smoking weed at home spent a disproportionate amount of tax money to pay for that urban park that’s now not safe to use, etc. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/15 "2008-03-17T02:18:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] First, you’ll have to actually establish that whites and blacks do illegal drugs at the same rate. [/quote] Well, the [White House says](http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/minorities/index.html) that the white rate is 8.5%, the black rate is 9.8% and the mixed race (not identified by which races are mixed) rate is 8.9%. From my perspective, a 1.3% spread is close enough to “the same rate” for government work. [QUOTE=Mosier] Then, you’ll have to establish that blacks and whites are doing the same types of drugs at an equal rate (do you really believe that posession of marijuana, for example, should be prosecuted as often as posession of crack?) [/quote] The favored drugs of each group are, indeed, different. However, there is no legitimate reason for crack to be treated as 100 times worse than powder cocaine and the fact that crack is favored in the black community while whites tend to use powder strongly suggests a racial bias in keeping those disparate penalties for 22 years–21 years after the initial hysteria over crack was debunked. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/16 "2008-03-17T02:22:19Z")
From John Locke: > [@](#): > > the law in its eternal majesty permits the poor and the rich impartially to sleep under a bridge ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/17 "2008-03-17T02:22:46Z")
As to the more general question in the OP, [QUOTE=Anatole France] The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. [/QUOTE] (I do not endorse or encourage stealing food.) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unequal-law-enforcement-a-problem/441282/18 "2008-03-18T11:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Racist aspects of policing and prosecution probably play some role here, but I think the best explanation is that it is simply easier to catch drug-users in an urban park than in some kid’s suburban basement (and also far easier to prosecute poor people than rich people). [/QUOTE] Also, it depends upon where cops cruise. How often do you see a patrol car just cruising in Los Feliz? So many busts are contingent on traffic stops, and if they aren’t in your neighborhood, you’re not going to get stopped, and they aren’t going to find that marijuana in your car. In a well-to-do neighborhood, people rarely complain about drug use. It’s a domestic issue, that doesn’t involve law enforcement. The police respond to complaints and public relations, so if there’s a neighborhood with a crack house, and the neighbors complain, they’ll be cruising by a lot. But if a hobo goes for a walk in Los Feliz, and someone calls, there will be five cop cars surrounding him in two minutes.