# Unethical people & product warranties **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2025, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585 "2025-05-20T16:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/21 "2025-05-20T22:19:41Z")
We’ve gone around this bush and closely related bushes (e.g. all you can eat buffets) umpteen times over the decades. All manner of “treat the customer right” business decisions are predicated on the customers collectively treating the vendor at least mostly right. if the customers collectively turn into thieving scumbags, the company will do the same eventually. or be driven out of business. Certainly the heedless short-sighted “I’m gonna steal this stuff before somebody else does” mentality is much in vogue these days. The fact it’s become more commonplace does not mean it’s become more ethical. Or more moral for those who try to distinguish those two ideas. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/22 "2025-05-20T23:01:48Z")
I’d say it’s more accurate the implication is that most people aren’t going to act like thoughtless scum and it’s not worth the time and effort to write a more restrictive warranty when the company can adjust the cost to cover the small percentage of folks who abuse the policy. But companies do have to make significant changes to return policies, buffets, etc. because of the behavior of those whose actions were once several standard deviations away from reasonable become closer to the norm. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/23 "2025-05-20T23:28:47Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > There’s a practical reason to know what the proper care is, and follow it. Even if there is a lifetime warranty, no questions asked, you still have to go through the process of getting the socks replaced if they become damaged. It’s better to just not ruin them in the first place. So it’s still good to know how to properly take care of them. This. Availing oneself of the warranty replacement policy carries a PITA factor. The care recommendations are the consumer’s tool to mitigate that factor. As for unethical behavior, it would be unethical to void a warranty and pretend (even successfully) that you had not. How does one void a non-voidable warranty? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/24 "2025-05-21T00:27:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > the care instructions (hand or machine wash cold & gentle cycle, wool detergent, dry flat) How, exactly, are those instructions worded? Are they something like “recommended” or “for best results,” or do they say something like “required” or “only”? I agree that it’s unethical to mistreat a product and then return it if/when it gets damaged. But I don’t know whether I would consider failing to scrupulously follow the care instructions “mistreatment.” Personally, I don’t usually look at the care instructions of my clothing—but then, I don’t usually buy clothing that is expensive or requires special care. > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > What about people who buy something from a store with the intention of using it and then returning it? That is, they never had the intention of keeping it no matter what, but essentially are looking for a free rental. There’s no question in my mind that that’s (usually if not always) unethical. But I think it’s different enough that it’s not particularly relevant to the OP’s question—which I do think is a fair question, whatever its answer. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/25 "2025-05-21T00:46:01Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > From an ethical standpoint, so long as you don’t deliberately damage the socks I think you’re safe even if you didn’t treat the socks with the respect they deserve. The only respect socks get from me is bowing from the waist when I put them on. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/26 "2025-05-21T00:51:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It seems to me that, by offering this unconditional warrantee, the sock company is implicitly saying that “Our socks are so tough, they’ll continue to hold up no matter how you treat them”. In other words, the usage instructions are “go ahead and use them however you want”. In such a situation, I don’t see anything at all unethical about using them however I want. > > I probably still wouldn’t deliberately try to damage them, unless I ran a product-review website or something and was trying to determine just precisely how durable the socks are. But I would absolutely take that as permission to launder them in whatever way was easiest for me. Agree completely. The whole marketing proposition with Darn Tough is that they are quality and last a really long time, and don’t need to be treated delicately. Even if there is a “best practice”. (For what it’s worth, I own many pair of Darn Tough socks, and they go through the wash with the rest of the normal clothes. In my experience, it doesn’t seem to negatively impact them). Also, the moral equivocation some are doing in this thread between putting socks that have a lifetime warranty through a contra-suggested but typical wash regimine and using a no-questions return policy as a free rental service is an extreme stretch. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/27 "2025-05-21T01:13:42Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > eta: ps, I’m not clear why this thread is in the pit. Are you pitting the Reddit posters who voted you down? Yeah, I was pissed off that despite me clearly stating what I was looking for, I got a bunch of suggestions to do something I didn’t want to, and when I said why I didn’t want to, I got chastised. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/28 "2025-05-21T01:22:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, I was pissed off that despite me clearly stating what I was looking for, I got a bunch of suggestions to do something I didn’t want to I suspect that might have been due to expressing the opinion that it was unethical to not wash the socks using the recommended method. You kind of self-hijack with something like that. > [@bump](#): > > when I said why I didn’t want to, I got chastised. That is people on the internet being assholes. To go back to your OP here: > [@bump](#): > > Specifically, I asked if there were any that were machine washable with warm water, normal cycle, and tumble dry medium That on its own looks like a simple request for advice. > [@bump](#): > > while my Darn Tough socks are great and have a lifetime warranty regardless of how I care (or don’t) for them, I don’t feel that it’s ethical to intentionally disregard the care instructions (hand or machine wash cold & gentle cycle, wool detergent, dry flat), and then submit a warranty claim. And this inevitably derails the discussion. Now, I of course haven’t read the discussion, so it’s possible you really only opened with a simple request, and when people refused to give any suggestions because they asked why you care about wash instructions for socks, you gave your explanation that you feel it’s an abuse of a warranty to wash socks against their recommendations. Though in that case I don’t think you’d have ever gotten any real help in the first place. That just isn’t a helpful environment. But from the info so far, to me this seems to me like you really screwed up in the way you asked the question. You overshared to such a degree that you shot yourself in the foot. (Though at least in doing so, the sock would still be covered by warranty.) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/29 "2025-05-21T01:24:07Z")
Why the hell would the nice people at Darn Tough bother to tell you the best way to take care of your socks if they didn’t care whether you did or not? Maybe it was because my parents grew up in the Depression, but I had it drummed into me that if you were going to spend the extra money to buy extra quality, then you damn well had to take care of it, whether it was not leaving tools out in the rain or not throwing wool socks in the dryer. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/30 "2025-05-21T01:40:34Z")
I’m just puzzled as to why a pair of socks would need a warranty. They’re socks; you wear them, you wash them, you wear them again, and you do this until they wear out. Then, you get rid of them, and get another pair. Zippo lighters have a famous lifetime guarantee. And Zippo will make good on it; they always have, and are justifiably proud of that. But if your lighter breaks down, getting Zippo to make good on the guarantee means that you’re going to be jumping through a lot of hoops: packaging at your expense, postage/shipping at your expense, instructions not to include X, Y, or Z in the package, allow so much time … Might be more efficient to just spend $20 on a new Zippo. Or the same for socks. You wear them, you wash them, and eventually, they wear out or somehow get ruined. So you toss them and buy a new pair. Even if the socks do have a warranty, is it worth your time, trouble, and money to get the company to make good on the warranty? Just get a new pair. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/31 "2025-05-21T01:49:18Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Maybe it was because my parents grew up in the Depression, but I had it drummed into me that if you were going to spend the extra money to buy extra quality, then you damn well had to take care of it, whether it was not leaving tools out in the rain or not throwing wool socks in the dryer. If I’m buying Darned Tough socks, I’m paying the extra money precisely so I don’t have to worry about how I’m taking care of it. It’s sort of like how, when the HumVee was new, there was one at a car show, surrounded by velvet ropes so nobody could touch it. The whole point of a HumVee is that it doesn’t matter! ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/32 "2025-05-21T01:59:10Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’m just puzzled as to why a pair of socks would need a warranty. They’re socks; you wear them, you wash them, you wear them again, and you do this until they wear out. Then, you get rid of them, and get another pair. Agreed, but I buy cheap comfortable socks in bulk. And they’re all identical so as long as I have 2 socks I have a matching pair. Just a different philosophy. Then again, I don’t go hiking. I _used to_, and having a sturdy pair of wool socks was important. I get not skimping on them. If you have the wrong socks or something goes wrong with them on a hike, you might have a very long and painful walk to get back to civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/33 "2025-05-21T03:41:47Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Why the hell would the nice people at Darn Tough bother to tell you the best way to take care of your socks if they didn’t care whether you did or not? [Because clothing vendors are required to provide wash care instructions.](https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/clothes-captioning-complying-care-labeling-rule) Yay government. > [@Spoons](#): > > I’m just puzzled as to why a pair of socks would need a warranty. They’re socks; you wear them, you wash them, you wear them again, and you do this until they wear out. Then, you get rid of them, and get another pair. I owned a pair of Levis socks decades ago. They also had a lifetime warranty and were priced accordingly. They were thick, sturdy, and possessed an underlying web made of extremely strong thread. I can understand why a company would promote this with a lifetime warranty. I agree that most consumers who recognize the product’s value shouldn’t bother to avail themselves of their rights. I confess that I once sent in a knapsack that had a lifetime warranty after a few years of heavy use. Retrospectively, I think that was dickish, but not extremely dickish. I wouldn’t feel bound by wash care instructiongs though. What about the lifetime warranty of the Patek Phillipe luxury watch? Yeah, that could be cashed in: their ads stress its multigenerational value after all. I think the moral issue boils down to the implicit contract. The firm is assuring me, the consumer, of high quality and is _assuming_ that I won’t waste my time. Getting a free luxury watch repair by a representative of the manufacturer wouldn’t be a waste of time for the consumer. > [@Atamasama](#): > > Agreed, but I buy cheap comfortable socks in bulk. And they’re all identical so as long as I have 2 socks I have a matching pair. Just a different philosophy. Buying ~ 20 pairs of identical socks at Walmart was one of my better investments. Not having to match socks is satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/34 "2025-05-21T12:55:36Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > 1. Discover issue then remove and wash socks. > 2. Fill out online form. > 3. Ship socks. > 4. Receive code. > 5. They ship you new socks. > 6. Put on new socks. They left out one step: **4.5 You have to pay shipping on the new socks, and the credit they give you may not cover a new pair.** I was modestly disappointed when I attempted to replace one pair of DTs that wore out. Never woulda crossed my mind if I weren’t aware of their guarantee. I thought I could just get a replacement at REI, but no. It required slightly more than minimal effort to work through the system and get the replacement ones. IIRC, they cost me around $10. Sure, a lot less than a new pair, but not exactly the “no effort” replacement I expected. (Unfortunate punchline - as a size 11.5-12, I’m right between 2 sizes. The replacement pair I got was the smaller size - and is slightly smaller than I would prefer. If I had bought them in the store, I woulda returned them for a larger size.) After that experience, I would never attempt a return with them again. Any sock - SmartWool, Darn Tough, whatever - eventually wears out. No big deal. DT socks are fine. But they are no better than so many others. And those socks wore out on the bottom of the heel. The same way just about every sock I’ve ever owned has. Not sure what amount of gentle washing woulda changed that. Never crossed our minds to baby our wool socks when laundering. Never noticed any adverse effect until they inevitably wore out at the heel. My standard comment WRT lifetime guarantees is that when the object wears out, they send someone to your house who kills you. There! It lasted you a lifetime! 😃 On occasion we’ve returned something to REI that we used lightly - like a duffel or fanny pack. We bought it in good faith, but it just didn’t work the way we had hoped. When we were up front with them, they said, “No problem.” I’ve felt a little odd about that, but their response conveys that we were holding up our end of the bargain. If that is their policy, I’m not sure why I should “punish”. myself. Now folk who buy gear with every intention of returning it, and use it hard. They are simply assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/35 "2025-05-21T13:59:49Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’m just puzzled as to why a pair of socks would need a warranty. They’re socks; you wear them, you wash them, you wear them again, and you do this until they wear out. Then, you get rid of them, and get another pair. Looking at their website they charge $20-35 for **one pair**! If I’m paying that much for one pair (I _never_ would!) then they better well last a long time or I definitely would get them replaced. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/36 "2025-05-21T14:00:52Z")
It’s now standard practice at many retailers to capture information on the person returning goods, often by scanning the returner’s driver’s license. There are third-party companies (like [The Retail Equation](https://www.theretailequation.com/)) that compile this data and try to identify those abusing the process. At some point the retailer may warn such customers when purchasing goods that their ability to return may be limited. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/37 "2025-05-21T14:36:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > At some point the retailer may warn such customers when purchasing goods that their ability to return may be limited. Or (more likely, it seems to me) put it in the fine print that they have the right to refuse refunds/exchanges to such customers identified by such companies. It’s unlikely they will be able to make that identity connection for certain at point of sale ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/38 "2025-05-21T14:39:06Z")
My guess is the customer would be informed during the return process, when the driver’s license is scanned. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/39 "2025-05-21T15:29:22Z")
I may have… I was just trying to avoid exactly what happened, which is the Darn Tough brigade shows up and says “Just get DT socks.” even though I specified socks that don’t have separate care instructions. And despite that, I _still_ got that same answer. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I confess that I once sent in a knapsack that had a lifetime warranty after a few years of heavy use. Retrospectively, I think that was dickish, but not extremely dickish. I wouldn’t feel bound by wash care instructiongs though. See, I’m the other way around. I’d happily send a backpack with a lifetime warranty in, if it failed under heavy use. In fact, I’ve done so; my Jansport frame pack started coming unsewn back when I was a Boy Scout and went to Philmont. Turned it in under warranty, got another. The thing is, I didn’t do anything that I knew was _expressly_ against the instructions or recommendations. I used a frame backpack for what it was supposed to be used for- backpacking, and it started coming apart. But with the socks, if I know there’s a lifetime warranty, and there are recommended care instructions, I feel like it’s somehow dishonest to disregard them, and then put in warranty claims. It’s like there’s an implied agreement that if I do my part and treat the socks appropriately, then the company will replace them if they fail. But if I go wild and wash them on hot, and dry them on hot, and they fail, it seems like I’ve deliberately broken my side of the bargain, even if the company will hold up their side regardless. It’s nothing to do with Darn Tough, it’s with my own moral/ethical compass. And I’m not saying I won’t wear the merino wool socks when we do real hiking, and do the usual care. I was just asking if there were easier care socks that I could buy that were also high quality. (turns out Thorlo makes some that are polyester that are exactly what I’m looking for) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585/40 "2025-05-21T15:39:40Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I was modestly disappointed when I attempted to replace one pair of DTs that wore out. Never woulda crossed my mind if I weren’t aware of their guarantee. I thought I could just get a replacement at REI, but no. It required slightly more than minimal effort to work through the system and get the replacement ones. Darn Tough is a local (well, local enough) business for me, and I’ve always been excited about them in part for that reason. Until very recently, there were a few local outdoor retailers you could go to and return the socks for a warranty exchange in house. I had a pair that I wanted to exchange this year, brought them in only to learn that they ended that partnership/process. And as you say, now I have to mail them in and put a lot of labor and some amount of $$ into the process. I have not, as of yet, returned the socks. But I also care a little less about brand loyalty. One of their differentiators to me was the feeling that knowing I could, if I wanted, bring my socks into the store and exchange them. I own many pairs of their socks, and have never utilized the warranty. Knowing that they’ve made it more difficult (and not an effort that I’m going to take) makes me more inclined to find similar products at a lower price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unethical-people-product-warranties/1018585.md?page=3)