# Unexpected inversions of symmetry in fiction \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655 "2011-12-09T19:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/21 "2011-12-10T02:31:01Z")
So…“reversal of symmetry” is roughly equivalent to “surprise”? ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/22 "2011-12-10T02:38:11Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > So…“reversal of symmetry” is roughly equivalent to “surprise”? Yeah, something like that. Hasn’t it always kind of been that way? How surprised are you with the mirror scene in Contact? You can watch it again and pay more attention until you get, and then get it better. By the way “hydrogen times pi” is when everything really inverts. But that’s hard to figure out. When do the prime numbers show up again? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/23 "2011-12-10T03:04:24Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > **hoenikker** , if you haven’t seen it, I highly, highly recommend the movie **The Nemesis Game**. I have a feeling you will really like it. Not only does it have a nice inversion scene as mentioned here, but it also touches on some of the themes in the other thread. > > Mild spoiler, but avoid if you want the full experience of the movie: > > Ultimately the question is whether people really know what’s going on or not. Or maybe there’s a game that everyone but you is aware of. God, I love that movie. Right down to when you finally realize that not understanding what’s going on is a \*good \*thing, because it means you’re not broken like the people who understand the design are. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/24 "2011-12-10T03:16:58Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > God, I love that movie. Right down to when you finally realize > > that not understanding what’s going on is a \*good \*thing, because it means you’re not broken like the people who understand the design are. Sounds incredible! If I could pick one movie to live within for the rest of my life as Truman Burbank, I would pick that one! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/25 "2011-12-10T03:27:36Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > Think quantum-mechanically! Unless you want to think 4th dimensionally, and you’re a fan of Back of the Future. > [@hoenikker](#): > > Yeah, something like that. Hasn’t it always kind of been that way? How surprised are you with the mirror scene in Contact? You can watch it again and pay more attention until you get, and then get it better. > > By the way “hydrogen times pi” is when everything really inverts. But that’s hard to figure out. When do the prime numbers show up again? I’ll have whatever he’s on. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/26 "2011-12-10T03:35:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’ll have whatever he’s on. In a Freudian way? By the way, I saw A Dangerous Method and the implicit role reversals between Freud and Jung were startling. Thank God we solve our problems with lithium nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/27 "2011-12-10T03:39:47Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > Someone can probably come along with a tvtropes link, but hopefully we can discuss these interesting reversals here and find a stand alone complex together. Fine, I’ll do it. I should have asked more subtly. > **[My God, What Have I Done? - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyGodWhatHaveIDone)** > > A well-intentioned but misguided character — very likely a Tragic Hero, a Tragic Villain, or Anti-Villain — comes to realize that their actions have caused incredible damage, physical pain, emotional pain, or even loss of life. The … > **[Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/GhostInTheShellStandAloneComplex?from=Main.GhostInTheShellStandAloneComplex)** > > Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is a TV anime series and adaptation of Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell manga. It tells the story of Public Security Section 9, a covert counter-terrorist task force working for the Japanese government … ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/28 "2011-12-10T04:40:49Z")
How about **Shutter Island**? When I saw it for the first time, it was an intriguing but confusing story, and I was like, ‘‘Okay, that was a decent twist ending thriller.’’ When I saw it for the second time, I realized how deliberate everything in that film was. When you watch it knowing the end, it changes the entire experience and meaning of the film. It’s a twist within a twist. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/29 "2011-12-10T08:49:06Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > How about **Shutter Island**? When I saw it for the first time, it was an intriguing but confusing story, and I was like, ‘‘Okay, that was a decent twist ending thriller.’’ When I saw it for the second time, I realized how deliberate everything in that film was. When you watch it knowing the end, it changes the entire experience and meaning of the film. It’s a twist within a twist. Recursively twisting, you mean? Like the dreams within dreams of Inception. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/30 "2011-12-10T13:52:07Z")
hoenikker writes: \> So “your perception of what is going on” is not an axis of symmetry? No, it’s not. You don’t understand what symmetry is or what an axis of symmetry is. In any case, from the examples given here, we apparently understand what you really mean, so it’s not worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/31 "2011-12-10T14:38:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > hoenikker writes: > > \> So “your perception of what is going on” is not an axis of symmetry? > > No, it’s not. You don’t understand what symmetry is or what an axis of symmetry is. In any case, from the examples given here, we apparently understand what you really mean, so it’s not worth discussing. Do you appreciate mathematical poetry? What about Life of Pi? Anyway, that’s just an aside. Better to do it your way and continue the discussion as if I just disappeared right now. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/32 "2011-12-10T18:00:44Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > Recursively twisting, you mean? Like the dreams within dreams of Inception. Not exactly. More like the first and second viewing are two different movies. 1. Your standard twist-ending thriller. 2. The twist is inevitable. The movie becomes a treatise on the confusion and denial of one very troubled individual, with an added layer of commentary about the subjective nature of reality. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/33 "2011-12-10T18:28:47Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Not exactly. More like the first and second viewing are two different movies. > > 1. Your standard twist-ending thriller. > 2. The twist is inevitable. The movie becomes a treatise on the confusion and denial of one very troubled individual, with an added layer of commentary about the subjective nature of reality. Ahh: so the first case is Inception, and the second case is A Beautiful Mind? ETA: Thanks for the incredible insight, Neo 😉 ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655/34 "2011-12-10T20:37:07Z")
This troll has been banned, so I’m going to lock this. If there’s a kernel of sense in here somewhere that people want to discuss, feel free to start a new thread. **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unexpected-inversions-of-symmetry-in-fiction-spoilers/605655.md?page=1)