# UNFAIR! Chest Covering in public. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969 "2004-07-20T08:00:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/1 "2004-07-20T08:00:02Z")
In American society, women are obligated to cover their chest (nipples, breasts), but men are allowed to expose themselves in public without covering their chests! This is a difference from the Moslem bhurqua (where women are required to cover their hair, faces, eyes, etc.) only in degree. For a society to be truly equal, either men should be required to cover their chests (to the same degree as females) or females should not be required (i.e., by law to avoid ‘indecent exposure’ charges) to cover their chests. Equality would give either gender the choice to cover or not, or would require both to cover or not. What say ye? S¬ …V ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/2 "2004-07-20T09:37:21Z")
I’m fine with it. But let’s just get these out of the way: 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 (there’s gonna be a lot of that in this thread). > [@](#): > > This is a difference from the Moslem bhurqua (where women are required to cover their hair, faces, eyes, etc.) only in degree. That’s not true, or at least it’s more nuanced than that. Asking women to cover their nipples - and as far as I can tell, that’s the only thing that really has to be covered - just doesn’t compare. I think the difference is akin to tickling vs. capital punishment. Maybe it’s a difference in degree, but it’s a huge difference in degree, so a comparison seems kind of silly. > [@](#): > > For a society to be truly equal, either men should be required to cover their chests (to the same degree as females) or females should not be required (i.e., by law to avoid ‘indecent exposure’ charges) to cover their chests. Like I said, I’d be fine with it. But I guess what the law is recognizing is that the female chest, especially nipple, is just more of a sexual thing than the male chest/useless nipple. Which is true, and you don’t really have to treat things the same way when they have some important differences. I’m fine with allowing women to go topless, although it might dramatically decrease productivity in warm climates and in the summertime and bring our civilization to a halt - I just don’t really buy those arguments for it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/3 "2004-07-20T10:07:07Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > What say ye? Agree 142%!!!1 I would even go so far as to propose a law making it mandatory for women to uncover their breasts. At least for women in some specific age brackets. Not that it has anything to with equality. You might not have noticed, but men and women are different. E.g. most men with a normal diet do not have breasts. ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/4 "2004-07-20T10:28:36Z")
The law in New York was changed to be equal. It is not against the law for a Woman to be topless(uncovered) in public. I have not seen any women using this law yet. The group that got the law changed was called the “Top free seven”. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/5 "2004-07-20T11:52:09Z")
It’s legal for anyone to go topless in Ontario, but you very rarely see it happen. It’s common at raves and big concerts maybe, but rarely on the street or at the park. Just 'cause you can, doesn’t mean you will. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/6 "2004-07-20T13:32:53Z")
For what it’s worth, I don’t see men being able to go around topless as one of the hallmarks of an advanced civilization. I’d just as soon see an ordinance requiring men to cover up. Of course, I tend to think the beach is a separate issue- I dont see anything wrong with a blanket policy allowing for toplessness there. There’s nothing wrong with nudity, but I tend to think there is a time and a place for it. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/7 "2004-07-20T13:43:58Z")
As has been mentioned, it’s legal here in Ontario and apprently in New York too (did not know that), but in the 7 or so years that it has been legal I’ve yet to see any topless women anywhere. On very rare occasions, you may see one at a beach, but even then not much. Here the provoncial court ruled that it was unfair to women to force them to cover up, but honestly, most women are far too modest/self-conscious/stuck-up to ever bother. Making it legal wouldn’t do much good anywhere else, since it really didn’t do much good here. There are better issues to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/8 "2004-07-20T14:26:13Z")
Also, there’s no real point to being allowed to go topless when it’s below freezing out. In Ontario, most of the time, such permission is irrelevant for everyone. 🙂 Not that I’d _mind_ or anything… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/9 "2004-07-20T14:32:02Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > For what it’s worth, I don’t see men being able to go around topless as one of the hallmarks of an advanced civilization. I’d just as soon see an ordinance requiring men to cover up. In a related vein, I think some folks are making some hasty assumptions about the aesthetic qualities of the female mammary. Not all wimmen have \*Playboy-\*esque tracts of land, y’know – for a lot of women, those things are just darn visually unappealing… ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/10 "2004-07-20T14:41:07Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Not all wimmen have Playboy-esque tracts of land, y’know… That’s the first thing you learn when you go to a nudist event (or to people-drawing class at art school for that matter): most people are blobby, awkward, ill-proportioned, and… imperfectly human. You realise how unreal the images we see in the media are. After the first shock, it’s strangely-liberating. 🙂 I think that’s the real reason many people are opposed to public nudity: it destroys the illusions that entire manipulative industries are based on. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/11 "2004-07-20T14:44:49Z")
> [@Booker57](#): > > The law in New York was changed to be equal. It is not against the law for a Woman to be topless(uncovered) in public. I have not seen any women using this law yet. The group that got the law changed was called the “Top free seven”. I recall seeing a segment on the news or one of those tabloid shows about a stripper (porn star?) who campaigned for the right to do just that. As soon as the verdict was handed down, she took a topless subway ride with dozens of dudes following her. I don’t think anyone ever expressed their rights in such a way after that though. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/12 "2004-07-20T14:57:39Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I think that’s the real reason many people are opposed to public nudity: it destroys the illusions that entire manipulative industries are based on. That too. To chime in another angle… the candy that you can’t eat tastes better. With the proliferation of pornography and such on the internet, people are getting really jaded by nudity. I admire people who are able to exude “sexy” without resorting to taking off their clothes. I mean, having lots of boobies around may be interesting at first, but enventually… you’d just get used to it. It stops being “special”, and once you get to the point in a relationship where you’d normally start yanking off each others’ clothes, you’re missing out on a whole element of the fun. Just IMHO. Besides, yes, most of the time most women, even in California in the summer, I think, would prefer to be wearing at least a bra than walking around flopping all over the place. The exceptions would be places like the beach and stuff. Besides, if your mother or grandmother decided to let them fly at Thanksgiving… well, I have no desire in seeing that, thanks. O\_o ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/13 "2004-07-20T15:19:01Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > In a related vein, I think some folks are making some hasty assumptions about the aesthetic qualities of the female mammary. Not all wimmen have \*Playboy-\*esque tracts of land, y’know – for a lot of women, those things are just darn visually unappealing… I have the same issue with those commercials for Bally’s Swim and Fitness, where they have dozens of fit, toned, pumped people working out on the machines. I used to have a membership at Bally’s, and the people at the gym did _not_ look like that… I am also of the opinion that seeing your friends unclothed changes the nature of your friendship with them. Maybe for the better, maybe worse, but there is definitely a change once you’ve seen them without clothes on. Having that level of nudity in a public setting when you don’t expect it crosses over certain lines. Plus, if we had women walking around with the girls swingin’ in the breeze, there would be one hell of a lot more car accidents. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/14 "2004-07-20T15:21:13Z")
I would take it a bit further and require that everyone in the USA, regardless of age, race, color, ethnicity or place of origin, be naked at all times. Top coats would be permitted on a case by case basis when the temperature reached a certain low point. Flip-flops would be mandatory foot wear and no one would be allowed to board busses, trains, or airplanes with carryon luggage. Airport security would be improved about a jillion percent, concealed weapons would be a thing of the past and none of us would ever again have to wonder what someone else would look like naked. If I ever run for public office, that is going to be my platform. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/15 "2004-07-20T18:59:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Plus, if we had women walking around with the girls swingin’ in the breeze, there would be one hell of a lot more car accidents. Only at first. Once everyone got used to them, it’d be no worse than redheads vs. blondes vs. brunettes. At least then you can tell who’s got natural hair colors… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/16 "2004-07-20T19:14:49Z")
Yeah, men can get away with going topless in situations where women can’t. But in a setting which is the least bit formal at all, you’ll never see men with bare shoulders, or backs, or any part of their legs, while women can get away with all of these. So the unfairness goes both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/17 "2004-07-20T19:17:48Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I am also of the opinion that seeing your friends unclothed changes the nature of your friendship with them. Maybe for the better, maybe worse, but there is definitely a change once you’ve seen them without clothes on. Makes me wonder if the nature of discourse here at the SDMB would change if we were all required to post nude pictures of ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/18 "2004-07-20T20:26:55Z")
_blink_ ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/19 "2004-07-20T20:40:26Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Makes me wonder if the nature of discourse here at the SDMB would change if we were all required to post nude pictures of ourselves. [What do ya want sugar, a movie?](http://www.zagadka.net/studio/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=44) Nah, j/k. Maybe it’d work in the Pit, though. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969/20 "2004-07-20T20:45:39Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Yeah, men can get away with going topless in situations where women can’t. > > But in a setting which is the least bit formal at all, you’ll never see men with bare shoulders, or backs, or any part of their legs, while women can get away with all of these. > > So the unfairness goes both ways. Amen to that. In fact, instead of saying “the least bit formal at all”, you could almost have said “anywhere away from the beach or pool”, except that we can wear so-called “shorts” in some casual settings. Definitely women are getting the long end of the stick in terms of what’s culturally and socially acceptable. That’s always been true more or less, but with the dominance of oversize casual fashions for men the dichotomy has become more extreme. Hey, I don’t want to strut around with my butt hanging out, but when it’s 95% degrees out there I wish I could put on some mid-thigh high shorts–what for a woman would be considered quite moderate these days–and not have others think it was so unacceptable for a guy to do so. If I could even find shorts like that to buy. As for the dominance of oversized garments, I think it’s partly due to the hip-hop culture, but not entirely. I think also the incidence of obesity is a major factor; the fatter you are, the better you look in today’s fashions if you’re a man. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfair-chest-covering-in-public/255969.md?page=2)