# "Unforgiven" -- isn't Little Bill the good guy, ultimately? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 16, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325 "2010-10-16T08:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/41 "2010-10-18T14:26:12Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Davey runs in and holds Delilah while the other cowboy slashes her face. “Davey! Come a runnin lad!” That’s evil enough to get gutshot, certainly in this movie. > [@UncaStuart](#): > > Curse my faulty memory! Having watched the scene again this weekend, Davey comes in, Mike tells him to hold Delilah, Davey does, but it’s pretty clear he doesn’t know what Mike is going to do. After the second slash Davey lets go of her and physically tries to stop Mike, including attempting to tackle him. So yeah, Davey is probably least deserving of what happens to him, though even in a modern court I’d guess he’d still have been prosecuted for murder if Delilah had died. And Ned’s Indian wife is Sally Twotrees. Will tells his kids to go see her if they need anything before he leaves, and tells the Schofield Kid to give Ned’s half of the money to her before he goes into the saloon. ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/42 "2010-10-18T21:16:05Z")
I think you missed the main point Eastwood was trying to offer up in this revisionist piece of self-indulgent crap: There are no good guys. Every man has sins and flaws which ultimately lead to his downfall. In case you hadn’t guessed, I really, really loathe this movie. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/43 "2010-10-18T21:19:09Z")
> [@FallenAngel](#): > > I think you missed the main point Eastwood was trying to offer up in this revisionist piece of self-indulgent crap: There are no good guys. Every man has sins and flaws which ultimately lead to his downfall. > > In case you hadn’t guessed, I really, really loathe this movie. Why do you call Unforgiven “revisionist”? What do you see it as revising? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/44 "2010-10-18T21:53:59Z")
This movie is also about vengeance, and its unsatisfying outcomes. The cowboy exacts vengeance on the whore who laughs at his little wiener. Which leads the whores to seek vengeance against the cowboys. Which leads the cowboys and Little Bill to exact vengeance on Ned. Which leads William Munny to seek vengeance against Little Bill. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/45 "2010-10-18T22:13:32Z")
I think the most powerful thing about it is the depcition of Munny throughout most of the movie as a sympathetic character in many regards. We here tales of his bad nature, but we don’t really see him do anything. But then, after a whole movie of building up sympathy, we see the visious cold-hearted William Munny at the end. And even if Little Bill deserved it, it isn’t clear the whole bar deserved it, but more important it really shows us what kind of many Munny must have been and is stil lcapable of. Munny is not, therefore, a sympathertic man, but a complicated, dangerous man. Our feelings about him are shaken up. This whole movie also is simply the Western version of the Thin Blue Line. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/46 "2010-10-19T00:00:26Z")
Does anyone know Clint Eastwood’s take on it? Paul Newman, for example, was appalled that some movies goers like the Hud character. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/47 "2010-10-19T00:11:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Indeed, I think it’s a little disingen… disingenue… you know, to pretend that the movie doesn’t ultimately cast Little Bill as the bad guy in opposition to Munny. While you can have some this way/that way about Little Bill for most of the movie, his torture and murder of Ned is simply evil. > > The thing is that Munny’s sins are largely in the past, as retold by the opening crawl, his own stories, and the stories of the Schofield Kid and Little Bill, as well as Ned’s acknowledgment that Munny was once a real bastard. But it’s all just stories, really, and until the very end it’s hard to tell what parts of the stories are real and which parts are total bullshit. Until the orgy of violence in Greeley’s, we don’t know for sure what a ferocious killer Munny actually is. > > The audience is set up to sympathize with Munny until that point because they don’t see Munny being as much of a bastard - he does murder Davey, of course, but he seems almost civilized about it - as they do Little Bill, whose barbarism explodes on screen several times before Greeley’s. > > Of course, AFTERWARDS, you’re left with the question… who was worse, Will Munny or Little Bill? (Incidentally, I do not for one instant believe it was an accident that they’re both named William.) That’s the genius of the movie; that’s why the movie makes you sympathize with William Munny. They took a very conventional Western story, led you through it, and at the end you find yourself thinking, “Wait a minute… was I rooting for the villain this entire time?” I was with you until the very last paragraph there. I came away thinking that because Muny was to some extent avenging Ned by killing a despicable sheriff, and because he offers that one last threat in protection of the prostitutes, that he still got to leave holding some moral high ground. Which is why I disliked the movie. Of course, I might have misread it that many years ago, so perhaps I should watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/48 "2010-10-19T00:44:59Z")
I don’t think this is a movie about morality at all. This is a movie about how the desire for ‘power’ or ‘control’ gets in the way of efficiency. It is at the same time a tale of ‘the effects of disproportionate violence’. The cowboy who cut up the whore was trying to establish his power over her after she laughed at his little dick. The whores wanted power over the cowboys because they thought the cowboy’s actions were disproportionately violent. English Bob used disproportionate and unnecessary violence to control Chinese rail-workers and gain a reputation and attempted to use these to get money. Little Bill used disproportionate violence to control/demean English Bob and send a message to any other ‘English Bob’s’ and thus maintain power. The only character who doesn’t use disproportionate violence to advance his own ego/concerns is William Munny. Munny may not be a good friend (A good friend would have let Ned stay in his current life.), but he is a loyal friend. When Ned says he doesn’t have the heart to kill anymore, Munny lets him leave the party. Munny isn’t interested in controlling Ned. Munny has no interest in shooting anyone but the cowboys who deserve shooting. He only goes after Little Bill after Ned is killed. He avenges Ned because Ned was his friend and Ned’s death was demeaned. In the bar, Munny also declines to be disproportionately violent when he gives those who don’t want to be killed an opportunity to go out the back. Munny doesn’t argue with Little Bill about whether Little Bill deserves death (Munny’s actions have nothing to do with societal morals, but everything to do with loyalty - first to his children and then to his friend.) but agrees that they will meet in Hell. Munny lives because he never lets his ego influence, or get in the way of, his killing. He is simply the most cold-blooded/efficient killer. ---
**Author:** ![rolandgunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@rolandgunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rolandgunslinger)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/49 "2010-10-19T00:55:44Z")
Not to hijack or anything. I would love to see a prequel to this movie about Munny and his past. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/50 "2010-10-19T01:21:38Z")
I would love to see a sequel (ala Little House on the Prairie) about William Munny’s successful West Coast mercantile business. (With occasional reference to why customers should buy from him and not competetors.) Heh heh heh! ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/51 "2010-10-19T01:25:05Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > Not to hijack or anything. I would love to see a prequel to this movie about Munny and his past. I disagree (but in a friendly way). I despise when characters with a mysterious backstory have that backstory explained. It’s always so underwhelming. An example - Lonesome Dove. Gus and Call were perfect as grizzled old Texas Rangers with a past. A past that was only relevant to the story in that it occasionally popped up to show how badass they were. When McMurtry went back and wrote that past (in later novels) it was just flat. Or how about Darth Vader? Lucas took three movies to deliver a story that neutered the Dark Lord of the Sith. All the mystery about Luke’s father giving in to the dark side and getting encased in the black suit? Gone. And replaced with a meh backstory. Just my personal opinion. End hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/52 "2010-10-19T02:43:42Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > Not to hijack or anything. I would love to see a prequel to this movie about Munny and his past. [This](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058461/) is pretty close. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/55 "2010-10-19T03:38:28Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Spam reported. What does “A Fistful of Dollars” have to do with Monty Python? Youth is just wasted on the young. Honestly! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/56 "2010-10-19T09:16:28Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > Not to hijack or anything. I would love to see a prequel to this movie about Munny and his past. No, no, no, Leave it be. You already know all you need to know about every character in the movie. Adding more detail would ruin it for me. Remember the incredulous tone of the deputy? “Little Bill? _scared_?” The horrified tone of the prostitute as she recounts Little Bills description of Munny’s deeds? Less is more people. Hitchcock would approve, the past deeds of Munny and Little Bill are more powerful because we don’t see them. Ambiguity can be very satisfying. 12 monkeys? Pan’s Labyrinth? Like in “The Usual Suspects” where we end up non the wiser as to whether Keyser Soze exists. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/57 "2010-10-19T15:35:36Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > [This](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058461/) is pretty close. > > Stranger I had the same thought; I think others have as well. I seem to recall an interview in which Eastwood suggested that _Unforgiven_ was the deconstructed sequel to _A Fistful of Dollars_. No cite; it was long ago and I’m not sure I’m not imagining it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/58 "2010-10-19T16:11:24Z")
Yeah, we’ve already seen Eastwood in at least a dozen movies that could be prequels to “Unforgiven”. Pick any one you like. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/59 "2010-10-19T16:18:27Z")
I’d like to pick [this one](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064782/). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/60 "2010-10-19T17:11:05Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I’d like to pick [this one](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064782/). One of my favorite moments from [The Simpsons](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM5-xFenaZI) :D. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/61 "2010-10-20T00:56:18Z")
> [@FallenAngel](#): > > I think you missed the main point Eastwood was trying to offer up in this revisionist piece of self-indulgent crap: There are no good guys. Every man has sins and flaws which ultimately lead to his downfall. > > In case you hadn’t guessed, I really, really loathe this movie. Yeah, I guessed, but why? Surely the “moral” that every man has his sins and flaws isn’t it or you’d hate most of literature, music, theater, and cinema. I dunno, maybe you do, but if not, what is it? My mind-reading is out of order today, I can only understand you when you use words. I am also curious about the revisionist tag. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325/62 "2010-10-20T16:37:14Z")
> [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](#): > > [portion deleted] After all, “ **Deserve’s got nothing to do with it**.” (The most important single line of the film). Really? Even more than: **“That’s right. I’ve killed women and children. I’ve killed just about everything that walks or crawled at one time or another. And I’m here to kill you, Little Bill, for what you did to Ned.”** 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unforgiven-isnt-little-bill-the-good-guy-ultimately/557325.md?page=4)