# Unfortunate Changes in Language **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 19, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986 "2009-05-19T17:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/1 "2009-05-19T17:46:58Z")
I’m reading an early 20th century British Translation of Jules Verne’s **Adrift in the Pacific** (AKA **Two Years’ Holiday** ), and I’ve come across one of those cases where the meaning of the words have changed, creating unintended humor. It’s on page 26: > [@](#): > > Webb and Wilcox, who were both about twelve and a half, were in the fourth form. They were not particularly bright, and were rather inclined to be quarrelsome. On one thing they prided themselves; that was their intimate knowledge of faggism in all its branches. Every information on the fag, and how to treat him, was to be obtained gratis from Messrs. Webbans Wilcox. I keep trying to be adult about this, and say that it’s simply a change in the language, and that surely later 20th century slang can’t be relevant here, but the damned passage keeps taunting me. These two young boys have _intimate_ knowledge of faggism (snicker). _Every_ information of the fag (snort) and how to treat him (ha) can be obtained gratis (extended laugh) from Messrs. (what a foppish way to put it) Webb and Wilcox (this is Mr. Kidd and Mr. Wint). Can anyone tell me what the real meaning of “fag” and “faggism” is in this context? The only other meanings I know are 1.) a bundle of sticks 2.) cigarette 3.) to be really tired out. None of those seem to fit. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/2 "2009-05-19T17:52:21Z")
I believe that a ‘fag’ was also a lower-year student acting as a servant to an upper-year student, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/3 "2009-05-19T18:07:48Z")
I had never heard of this Jules Verne book, so I looked it up on Google Books, and there it was. Thanks! As an appropriate aside, the very first illustration of the book is captioned: “Briant and the negro rushed forward.” > **[Adrift in the Pacific](https://books.google.com/books?id=jE0MAAAAYAAJ&dq=Jules%2BVerne%27s%2BAdrift%2Bin%2Bthe%2BPacific&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=YvQSSvCdJ8yclQeT9tDUAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4)** > > After their schooner comes adrift from its mooring in Auckland, New Zealand, fifteen boys find themselves drifting in the Pacific Ocean. Following a bad storm at sea, they land the schooner on an island where they survive for two years before being... ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/4 "2009-05-19T18:26:40Z")
For more examples of linguistic drift (with unfortunate results) check [this page](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveAGayOldTime) from TVTropes. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/5 "2009-05-19T18:41:03Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I believe that a ‘fag’ was also a lower-year student acting as a servant to an upper-year student, but I could be wrong. yep…this is an old and honorable meaning of the word. To be a fag was to be in the service of an older person. To be the butler, janitor, and most importantly,— the empty-er of the chamber pot every morning. It was a status symbol to have a fag serving you, and a sign of low-status if you were required to fag for someone else. The system was based on the traditional order of British society, with its rigid classes and aristocratic disdain for commoners. Because, after all, _somebody_ had to empty the chamber pot… :). British schoolboys used to grow up reading the “character-building” stories of [Tom Brown’s Schooldays](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brown's_Schooldays).-- which is pretty scary to modern eyes…( and the constant fagging is only one small reason why) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/6 "2009-05-19T18:41:24Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I keep trying to be adult about this, and say that it’s simply a change in the language, and that surely later 20th century slang can’t be relevant here, but the damned passage keeps taunting me. These two young boys have _intimate_ knowledge of faggism (snicker). Please do try to keep a firm pecker, sir. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/7 "2009-05-19T19:06:54Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Please do try to keep a firm pecker, sir. And a stiff…upper lip. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/8 "2009-05-19T19:22:03Z")
I wish I could remember title of the the older book I was reading recently. A surprising sentence in it went something like this: “The landlady went downstairs to tend to her unexpected visitors, and her husband followed ejaculating.” What a mental image, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/9 "2009-05-19T19:28:10Z")
I remember one in which the businessman finished dictating some correspondence, upon which the typewriter rose and walked out of the office. Because he was done typing. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/10 "2009-05-19T20:03:37Z")
Does your fag have a firm pecker when he ejaculates? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/11 "2009-05-19T21:00:36Z")
When I watch _The Philadelphia Story_, I always have to steel myself for the scene in which Jimmy Stewart professes his love for Katherine Hepburn: > [@Macaulay Connor](#): > > A magnificence that comes out of your eyes and your voice… in the way you stand there, in the way you walk. You’re lit from within, Tracy. You’ve got fires banked down in you… hearth fires and holocausts! I remember pointing out to someone with whom I was watching that move, “Um, remember, that word didn’t have quite the same connotation in 1940.” ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/12 "2009-05-19T21:01:20Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > I wish I could remember title of the the older book I was reading recently. A surprising sentence in it went something like this: > > “The landlady went downstairs to tend to her unexpected visitors, and her husband followed ejaculating.” According to [this page linked earlier in the thread](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveAGayOldTime), it’s _War of the Worlds_: > [@](#): > > “His landlady came to the door, loosely wrapped in dressing-gown and shawl; her husband followed ejaculating.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/13 "2009-05-19T21:03:44Z")
In this case, a fag is a junior pupil at a school acting as a servant of sorts to a senior pupil. Note that a fag is not necessarily a personal servant but may be a junior on duty who responds to a cry of “Fag!” or “Boy!” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/14 "2009-05-19T21:12:31Z")
This is where I’d insert a bunch of “boner” snippets from the Batman comic, were I at home. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/15 "2009-05-19T21:52:23Z")
The first lines of “Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?” also now have unfortunate implications. “They used to tell me I was building a dream and so I followed **the mob** When there was earth to move or **guns to bear** I was always there, right on the job . . .” A wiseguy’s lament? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/16 "2009-05-19T22:00:39Z")
I remember reading a memoir written by Stephen Fry which suggested that sometimes the two meanings of the word “fag” were not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/17 "2009-05-19T22:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I had never heard of this Jules Verne book, so I looked it up on Google Books, and there it was. Thanks! The edition I have is a Sampson and Low, like that one, but the illustratioons are different, and they’re black and white. Jules Verne was an incredibly pro;lific writer, turning out more than a book a year, on average. I have and have read maybe 2/3 of them, but I hadn’t read this one before. I just picked it up in a used book store. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/18 "2009-05-19T23:48:00Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > “The landlady went downstairs to tend to her unexpected visitors, and her husband followed ejaculating.” > > What a mental image, eh? Similarly, “making love” had a different meaning. You’d find passages like “Mother smiled as she looked out the window and saw Mr. Pritchett making love to her daughter on the porch.” “Making love” meant something more like “proclaiming romantic interest” or “making googly eyes.” ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/19 "2009-05-20T00:03:59Z")
You can read some stories about what a fag had to endure in Roald Dahl’s autobiography _Boy_. One of these things was to “warm a seat” for a teacher in the Bogs (or maybe Boggs, it’s been awhile). Essentially, some toilets were outdoors, and some teachers sent boys go sit on the toilets to warm them when they felt a dump coming on. Roald Dahl describes brushing the ice off the seat and then sitting for awhile. The teacher comes, and a conversation along these lines ensues: T: Is it warm? RD: As warm as I can make it, sir. T: You know, some fags have cold bottoms, and others have warm ones. He then sits on the seat, and discovering that it’s warm informs RD that he makes a point to remember warm-bottomed fags. RD then goes on to explain that the teacher did remember him, and RD had to warm up the toilet several times. Oh, I almost forgot. One of the ways in which the unfortunate fag is chosen to complete whatever task is that the task-giver (I forget if upperclassmen could do this, or only teachers-- who I think were called prefectures) would just stand somewhere and yell fag at the top of his lungs. This leads to a line in this book which contains, “FAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaag!” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986/20 "2009-05-20T00:57:58Z")
I should not be at all surprised if the American slang “fag” (=homosexual) actually derives from the practice of having younger boys work as fags (=personal servants) to older boys in British public (=the oldest and most prestigious private, boarding) schools. As boys only boarding schools, British public schools have always been notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. When you put an older adolescent boy, filled both with testosterone and a sense of entitlement from his upper class origins, and isolated from all female contact for months at a time, in a position of almost total power over a younger boy who is just beginning to get oriented in this strange new society into which he has been thrust, the results are predictable (especially as the older boy had probably been subject to the same thing when he was younger). Incidentally, when I was growing up in Britain (not in the public-school-going upper classes, thank God), the word “fag” mostly meant cigarette. I remember hearing a story about a British celeb (I forget who), getting off the plane in New York and immediately announcing to his hosts, “I’m dying for a fag.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-changes-in-language/496986.md?page=2)