# Unfortunate circumstance or police misconduct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050 "2003-01-07T00:06:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/61 "2003-01-09T22:15:14Z")
“Give me a logical reason why an officer should endure a dog attack in order to avoid using deadly force against the animal?” I can’t, of course, because this is a clear difference of opinion and I am not going to be able to explain my values or viewpoints in a way that is “logical” to you. Let me just restate that wouldn’t feel comfortable killing a man just because I thought he might injure me. I would not use lethal force against a person (I’ll get to dogs in a minute) unless I felt I had to. That’s just my view, of course, but as a citizen I can tell you I’d prefer it if the police officers in my community felt the same way–and that goes for my neighbors who own guns, too. In the case I described, the deaf man might have _injured_ the officer but few witnesses besides the officer testified that he was at risk for his life given the way the rake was being wielded and the distance between the man and the officer. Perhaps to you, a police officer is so valuable that mere threat of injury alone justifies shooting. I just feel differently. I’d like to think I’d endure a black eye and a bad headache rather than shoot a man DEAD. Now as for a dog, I don’t think a dog’s life is as important as a human’s, so the standard is different. Killing a dog is less awful than taking the life of a person. But I’m enough of a sap to resist killing one until I felt sure there was grave danger. Even if that meant I was going to get my ass or leg or hand bit. It is clear to me that not everyone feels this way, so I don’t need that reiterated to me. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/62 "2003-01-09T22:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Pepper spray? Against an attack dog?** Come on **Shodan** , use some critical thinking here. The family had just been yanked out of the car and cuffed. They could not possibly have restrained the dog. What do you think the Postal Service uses against the vast number of dogs they’re confronted with daily? Hint: it isn’t shotguns. Attack dog? Seriously? Should cops assume every person they talk to is a deranged murderer? Then why would they assume every dog that comes near them is an “attack dog”? Of course, this all ignores the point that the ass of a cop standing next to the damn car, looking in and saying “there is a dog in here” _could have shut the damn car door._ ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/63 "2003-01-09T22:24:46Z")
The one thing that all the news sites seem to keep overlooking, is what made this a _felony_ stop in the first place? Did a policeman see a felony? No. A citizen saw a wallet fall off a car. _How did that turn into a felony stop requiring the suspects to be hancuffed while laying on the ground while their car is searched?_ Any police/dispatch/911 operators on this board that can give _any_ insight? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/64 "2003-01-09T22:32:58Z")
Gelding’s Maxim Number One: Part A, A police officer will lie if it serves his purposes and he thinks he can get away with it; Part B, A police officer will kill you (or your dog in some parts of Tennessee) if you give him an excuse. The video pretty clearly shows that the dog wasn’t a foaming at the mouth, hysterically hostile, aggressive pit bull from hell, that the owners were in no position to do anything about the dog, that the town officer was awfully quick on the trigger and the situation was created by the law enforcement types. There is however one more theory to consider which may provide Barney Fife with a justification. Is it possible that the police officer could have reasonably thought that the dog was a young Middle Eastern male with explosive strapped to his body intent on a suicide run at rural Tennessee disguised as a medium sizes dog? If so, assuming a dog can have citizenship rights, is it better to have shot the dog than to have had it classified as a enemy combatant and held incommunicado until such time as what ever war we have going on, it heirs, successors and assigns, are disposed of to the satisfaction of the Attorney General. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/65 "2003-01-09T22:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Gelding’s Maxim Number One: > Part A, A police officer will lie if it serves his purposes and he thinks he can get away with it; > Part B, A police officer will kill you (or your dog in some parts of Tennessee) if you give him an excuse… > \*\* To paraphrase Murphy, ‘Gelding was a lawyer’. You are either being facetious (I hope), or have had very little experience with police officers. ---
**Author:** ![Slartibartfastt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5e9695/32.png) [@Slartibartfastt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slartibartfastt)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/66 "2003-01-09T22:53:54Z")
Well I have looked at the video and there was no reason to pull the trigger. Its hard to tell exactly because of the poor quality of the video but this couldnt have been more than a 30 pound dog, it would have taken no great effort to restrain/kick the animal away. Yes it was jumping up and down but it was obviously in a playful/curious manner. Of course the real culprit is whoever decided that this family needed to be taken in with a felony arrest. There was no information of any kind that any crime had been committed. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/67 "2003-01-09T23:09:55Z")
And you, friend **Brutus** , are living in a fool’s paradise. There may well be all good, honest, reasonable, well adjusted police officers in some distant galaxy, but in the real world there are far too many brutal, bloody minded Yahoos looking to validate their importance and power. You can’t tell one for the other because they all dress the same. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/68 "2003-01-09T23:29:57Z")
**Spavined gelding** , that’s as bad a generalization as saying all foreigners are terrorists. It just isn’t so! I’ve known plenty of good, honest, _normal_ people in law enforcement. And, I’ve met some jerks. But to say they all are out to get you is ludicrous. Let’s get back to the dispatch question. What made this a felony call? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/69 "2003-01-09T23:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\* > Let me just restate that wouldn’t feel comfortable killing a man just because I thought he might injure me. \*\* So you’d feel uncomfortable using deadly force against a man who was coming at you with a knife? > [@](#): > > \*\* > In the case I described, the deaf man might have _injured_ the officer but few witnesses besides the officer testified that he was at risk for his life given the way the rake was being wielded and the distance between the man and the officer. \*\* Or he might have beat the police officer to the point where nerve damage was suffered. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Perhaps to you, a police officer is so valuable that mere threat of injury alone justifies shooting. I just feel differently. I’d like to think I’d endure a black eye and a bad headache rather than shoot a man DEAD. \*\* You must have a magical crystal ball that allows you to see the future. How do you know a black eye and a headache will be the extent of your injuries when someone is attacking you with a big stick? > [@](#): > > \*\* > But I’m enough of a sap to resist killing one until I felt sure there was grave danger. Even if that meant I was going to get my ass or leg or hand bit. It is clear to me that not everyone feels this way, so I don’t need that reiterated to me. \*\* Is the point where you’re sure you’re in danger before or after it starts chomping on your leg? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/70 "2003-01-09T23:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*[I’ve known plenty of good, honest, _normal_ people in law enforcement. And, I’ve met some jerks. But to say they all are out to get you is ludicrous. > \*\* As have I. I’ve known plenty of Yahoos,too. The gunman in this thread seems to fall into the Yahoo catigory. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/71 "2003-01-10T00:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*TYou are either being facetious (I hope), or have had very little experience with police officers. \*\* I recently spent a morning in a courtroom in DC and saw cops lying so much and so badly that even the judge had to comment their stories were so different they could not be more contradictory if they had arranged it. I am inclined to think cops _do_ routinely lie. A lot. > [@](#): > > A keeper is only a poacher turned outside in, and a poacher a keeper turned inside out. > Charles Kingsley ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/72 "2003-01-10T00:08:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*I recently spent a morning in a courtroom in DC and saw cops lying so much and so badly that even the judge had to comment their stories were so different they could not be more contradictory if they had arranged it. I am inclined to think cops _do_ routinely lie. A lot. \*\* Out of curiousity, how did you _know_ that they were lying? Because they were police officers and their lips were moving? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/73 "2003-01-10T00:09:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\* The gunman in this thread seems to fall into the Yahoo catagory. \*\* Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/74 "2003-01-10T00:55:00Z")
I was once bitten by a dog who was wagging its tail at the time–and I’ve always had dogs and know their body language well. I also understand that a nervous police officer wouldn’t want to take the chance that a dog moving towards him would be unaggressive. That being said, I find it hard to believe that there are no procedures for making a traffic stop when there’s a dog in the car. Dogs are in cars all the time. This can’t be the first time police have asked people to leave a vehicle with a dog inside. To me, a logical procedure would be to keep the dog in the car. A dog outside the car runs the risk of attacking the officer or running into traffic and getting hurt. Neither are good options. Keeping the dog inside the car until the police can evaluate the situation and then decide whether they need to re-enter the car seems the appropriate course of action. So I can grant the officer the benefit of the doubt once the dog was moving towards him. However, he never should have let the dog out of the car. I don’t think the family can be blamed for not giving commands to their dog. If I were forced out of my car, made to kneel, and put in handcuffs with a police officer pointing a gun at me, I’d be darned lucky to remember my own name let alone commands for my dog! By the way, “sit,” “stay,” or “down” are appropriate commands for stopping one of my dogs. “Get back” wouldn’t mean a darn thing to them. And “heel” would be counterproductive since, to my dogs, that means “come behind my left ankle and stay there” and would cause the dog to move towards to officer. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/75 "2003-01-10T01:07:42Z")
—An officer isn’t necessarily obligated to start with the least lethal amount of force and work his way up from there.— True. But this doesn’t translate into “any level of force is justifiable if I feel like it.” It seems that what you are arguing for is not a rationale, but the abscence of any rationale by which a use of force can be over-the-top. —Shoot the dog before it attacks someone, not while it attacks someone.— This would be like mailing a mod to say that “I think Apos MIGHT break the TOS: he seems very excitable, and about to do it: better ban him just to be sure.” ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/76 "2003-01-10T03:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > So you’d feel uncomfortable using deadly force against a man who was coming at you with a knife? > > \*\* Good god man, could you be any more insulting? Isn’t this just a discussion? But to answer the question, I’m not some idiot. If someone was coming at me or another person with a deadly knife and I had a gun, of course I’d shoot. If I thought stood to be injured–which was my original term–I don’t know if I could pull that trigger. Even though yes, with my imperfect knowledge of the future, I might be guessing wrong and could be injured worse than I imagined. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > You must have a magical crystal ball that allows you to see the future. How do you know a black eye and a headache will be the extent of your injuries when someone is attacking you with a big stick? > > \*\* I don’t know that, mr sarcasm, but what I’ve been saying is that I’d take that chance rather than KILL someone over it. Especially when my partner is standing next to me. Has the world become such a violent place that we think killing someone is not a big deal? It’s a huge deal, to some of us. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > Is the point where you’re sure you’re in danger before or after it starts chomping on your leg? > > Marc \*\* Alas, you’re right, I’m crippled without my crystal ball. But I just cannot imagine killing a dog until I was convinced that it was not going to let go of me. I was attacked by a Doper’s cat last year, which (because cat bites can be so dangerous) sent me to the emergency room. I didn’t kill that one, either. I guess my threshold for killing small domesticated animals is pretty high, and I don’t see why that’s so worthy of scorn. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/77 "2003-01-10T04:41:00Z")
Well goodness, it’s amazing there are any dogs left alive at all, what with the police needing to blow their heads off every time one walks towards them. Look out Ned! It’s coming right for us! ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/78 "2003-01-10T04:53:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*Did a policeman see a felony? No. A citizen saw a wallet fall off a car. \*\* And grossly over-reported it. Did you hear that bit from the 911 tape in one of those videos? 100-110MPH, with money flying out over the freeway. Can’t imagine why the police would think something bad was going on when they’re told that… ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/79 "2003-01-10T04:55:38Z")
I had seen the video earlier today, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dog look **less** like it was attacking anyone. However, tonight I heard the 911 call and I can tell you who is the most guilty in this case- the bitch who called 911 was wildly exaggerating, and she needs to be ashamed of herself and thankful she didn’t cause any more innocent lives to be lost. The police only had her information to go on, so I can’t blame them so much… This lying bitch on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/80 "2003-01-10T05:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*So you’d feel uncomfortable using deadly force against a man who was coming at you with a knife? \*\* MG, you’re refusing to actually address the issues. Have you seen the video or not? The dog was NOT charging the officer, biting him, or attacking him. Sure, Cranky’s rake-carrying man could have beaten an officer with a rake. But anytime YOU are within arm’s reach of a police officer it’s theoretically possible that you could attack him. Should you expect to be shot for walking by a cop on the street? If you’re returning from a softball game carrying a bat, and round a corner and surprise a cop, should he immediately draw his weapon and kill you? Or do you think maybe a good cop should make sure there’s actually a threat before killing someone? Even you know, though you’ve been unwilling to admit it in this thread for some reason, that the standard for deadly force is not the THEORETICAL possibility of attack. You live under the theoretical possibility of attack every time you’re within shooting distance of any other human. Theoretically, a dog in any stopped car could attack, so should a police officer’s first act upon pulling a car over be to shoot any dogs in the car? The standard for the use of deadly force is a REASONABLE apprehension of bodily harm. And anyone who can watch that video and conclude the cop had a reasonable basis for fearing attack is a liar or a nitwit. Unless it’s your position that any dog, anytime, anywhere is a threat to attack if it’s within range of a shotgun, that is. Sure, dogs can snap, but unless your SOP is “police officers should shoot all dogs they see,” I don’t see a reasonable basis for shooting this one. And that was the END of the screwups, not the beginning. They used far too much force in executing a stop, which was made based on no reasonable evidence of a felony having occurred. They didn’t close the car doors, which is not only bad police work (you’re supposed to CONTROL the situation, not use guns to kill the situation) it’s goddamned stupid. They acted like Beavis and Butthead would. A good police officer can resolve a situation without killing anyone or anything unless absolutely necessary, and there was no reason at all to use force in this situation. These men are terrible police officers and they acted stupidly and unprofessionally. That’s why we have police officers distinguished from citizens; these guys are supposed to be able to judge when deadly force is truly needed and when it is not, and they’re supposed to be able to control situations exactly like thsi one so that it never has to get that far. As MaddyStrut points out, it’s quite common for dogs to be in cars. My dogs love to ride in the car, and if I get out they’ll want to get out to, like pretty much 99% of all the dogs in the world. If these cops didn’t know how to deal with such a common situation, they’re damned fools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050.md?page=5)