# Unfortunate circumstance or police misconduct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050 "2003-01-07T00:06:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/141 "2003-01-13T20:36:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IndependentVoter \* > Talk about hyperbole. Let’s see…6 million dead…one dead dog… > Yeah…that’s a valid comparison. When did I actually mention the holocaust, or draw comparisons between killing a dog and killing six million people? I didn’t, that was **your** idea. I pointed out that ‘just following orders’ is not and should not be an excuse for doing something that’s wrong, and that the concept that people are responsible their own actions even when ‘under orders’ dates back to the Nuremburg era. Also, although you and your ilk refuse to acknowledge it, this case is not just about a dead dog but about a group of innocent people forced out of a car at gunpoint on the basis of a phone call and nothing else. How far from a police state are you when ‘officer safety’ requires that you kneel by the side of the road at gunpoint for investigation of a wallet left on the roof? > [@](#): > > You realize that police point guns at innocent people everyday don’t you? You realize that some people object to police pointing guns as innocent people without a damn good reason, don’t you? > [@](#): > > It’s not the cop’s job to sort out if someone is innocent or not, it’s their job to safely arrest people and try to make sure they keep themselves and the other cops they work with alive. It is the cop’s job not to violate the basic human rights of citizens, which is done on a regular basis. If you threatening someone’s life because you feel like it (say, by pointing a gun at them) that is a violation of their basic human rights unless you’ve got a damn good reason. Also, pointing guns at people unneccesarily is unsafe, as demonstrated by the numerous accidental shootings by police, so even by your job description above, pointing guns at people without a good reason is not part of the cop’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/142 "2003-01-13T21:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _From Phoenix Dragon:_ > **I don’t know if he didn’t see the dogs, didn’t take note of it (Looking for people instead?), or didn’t think it was important. If I had to bet, I’d guess he saw the dogs in the backseat and didn’t think it would get out the front door (Or, less likely, didn’t note that the far door was open).** Watch the video, this time with the sound turned up. The cop next to the car clearly says “we’ve got a dog in here”. Also, try to pay more attention as to what side of the car the dog hops out of. One thing that struck me was that it’s probably a damn good thing the dog didn’t go directly toward the cop with the shotgun and flashlight. That cop started backing up as soon as the dog hopped out and decided to fire within the 2 or 3 seconds the dog was out of the car. If the dog hadn’t gone out and come back, the cop would have been aiming the shotgun not only at the dog, but at the family and other police officers. With the way he reacted, I would bet money that he would’ve fired the shotgun without any thought to what was beyond his target. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/143 "2003-01-13T21:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _From MGibson:_ > **The last dog I had was a Golden Retriever that must have weighed about 50-60 pounds. One day while walking him in the park a huge black dog broke loose from his master and rushed us. It scared the hell out of me because I had no idea what this dog wanted with us. Luckily for us all he was friendly and all he did was walk up to my dog and drool on him. The point of my little story is that you can’t always know what the intentions of a dog is with just a few seconds of observation.** Was your first reaction to kill that dog? Would you have shot it dead if you’d had a gun in your hand? Why or why not? Do you think that being a police officer gives you a special right to kill dogs (or anything) that may or may not be a threat to you? ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/144 "2003-01-13T22:06:18Z")
Riboflavin… \*\*When did I actually mention the holocaust, or draw comparisons between killing a dog and killing six million people? I didn’t, that was your idea. \*\* hmm…My apologies…Would you mind explaining what you meant when you said this: \*\*I have no sympathy for the ‘just following orders’ defense, and I think it went out of style back in the 40s. \*\* * * * **Also, although you and your ilk refuse to acknowledge it, this case is not just about a dead dog but about a group of innocent people forced out of a car at gunpoint on the basis of a phone call and nothing else.** My ilk? 🙂 Please…I have been far from pretending that this was an acceptable incident. You and I just differ in opinon on who deserves the blame. You want to blame some $30,000 a year cop while I don’t like scapegoating the small guy in order to safeguard a system that isn’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/145 "2003-01-13T22:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Demise \* > \*\*Was your first reaction to kill that dog? Would you have shot it dead if you’d had a gun in your hand? Why or why not? Do you think that being a police officer gives you a special right to kill dogs (or anything) that may or may not be a threat to you? \*\* My first reaction was akin to a deer caught in the headlights. I didn’t do anything but breath a sigh of relief when I realized it was a friendly dog who just wanted to drool all over my dog. If I wasn’t caught by surprise and had a firearm in my hands it is entirely possible that I would have shot the dog. I don’t believe that police officers have any more right to kill something or someone then any other citizen. I think any reasonable person has just cause to fear for their safety when faced with a strange dog charging towards them. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/146 "2003-01-13T22:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IndependentVoter \* > hmm…My apologies…Would you mind explaining what you meant when you said this: I already did, you must have missed it in your zeal to selectively quote. “I pointed out that ‘just following orders’ is not and should not be an excuse for doing something that’s wrong, and that the concept that people are responsible their own actions even when ‘under orders’ dates back to the Nuremburg era.” > [@](#): > > Please…I have been far from pretending that this was an acceptable incident. You and I just differ in opinon on who deserves the blame. You want to blame some $30,000 a year cop while I don’t like scapegoating the small guy in order to safeguard a system that isn’t working. \*\* I don’t think that blaming the person who committed the crime is scapegoating anyone, that wanting to punish the criminal is equivalent to scapegoating his accomplices, and that the person sticking a gun into someone’s face is not some ‘small guy’ who just innocently got mixed up in things but a violent criminal who finally got caught abusing his power. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/147 "2003-01-14T01:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*Apparently you missed some of the other parts of my post. I posted the above statement in responce to another post that said that the caller said that the family was speeding away. My point was that the facts didn’t match the information given to the police. \*\* And the police on the scene didn’t know what the 911 call was. Not that it matters anyway; Cars -can- slow down, you know. Even if it had been speeding so fast before, that doesn’t mean it would be by the time they found them. The speeding bit added extra suspicion, which probably helped those early in the chain of command to decide there might be criminal activity involved. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > **They were the ones who were all to willing to sitck guns at people’s heads and force them to kneel beside the street while shooting their dog. I have no sympathy for the ‘just following orders’ defense, and I think it went out of style back in the 40s.** Hello Godwin :rolleyes: So when -can- the police do a felony stop? When someone’s already shot at them? Should it be illegal for them to ever conduct a felony stop if they’re not 100% sure the people they’re arresting are guilty? Because you’re damning them now for conducting a felony stop when all they knew was that dispatch said to conduct a felony stop on a car suspected of being involved in a robbery. And the comparison of “just following orders” to conduct a felony stop to “just following orders” in the murder of hundreds or thousands is a bad one at best, and a disgusting and insulting one at worst. > [@](#): > > **I guess you missed the multiple times I’ve pointed out the lack of probable cause, huh? My list is what officers on the scene SAW. All they had was a phone call that DIDN’T MATCH THE VISUAL EVIDENCE.** You like to keep bringing this up, so I’ll point it out again; The police on the scene **did not** know the contents of the phone call, or even how it came to be that these people were suspects. They **could not** compare the two, because they did not have both pieces. Are you now blaming them for not being omniscient, too? > [@](#): > > **This is precisely why I called you on not putting ‘felony stop’ in quotes; the term is misleading when used like you do to imply that there was an actual felony involved by anyone other than the police.** Misleading? I already told you, a felony stop doesn’t mean jack shit as to wether the people being pulled over commited a felony or not. If you want to infer that from it, fine. You can do that. You can also be completely wrong, too. Oh yeah… As to whoever trained you in your nice psycic abilities to tell what someone else is trying to imply by using a straight-foreward term, I think you should go and ask for your money back. It doesn’t seem to be working too well. I’m not implying one fucking thing, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from seeing what you want to. And I know there wasn’t any damn felony involved. I’m sure you’ve got the reading comprehension skills to know I know that, too. But it sure isn’t stopping you from putting words into other people’s mouths, now is it? Always easier to fight a strawman, after all. And not just that, but a red herring as well. The name of the stop they performed has zero relevance beyond identifying the action they took. > [@](#): > > **I’m quite willing to blame the person pointing a gun at innocent people for pointing a gun at innocent people.** So if the police on the scene are told to arrest some people in a felony stop, _they_ are the ones who should be in trouble if it ends up the person giving them the info/orders was wrong? For all the officers at the scene knew, there could have been hundreds of witnesses seeing these people comitting some crime. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Demise \* > **Watch the video, this time with the sound turned up. The cop next to the car clearly says “we’ve got a dog in here”. Also, try to pay more attention as to what side of the car the dog hops out of.** I thought that might be what he was saying (The audio was kinda crappy on the copy I saw). But still, he was on the left side of the car, from the camera’s viewpoint, and the dog came out on the right, unless there’s something I’m missing there…? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/148 "2003-01-14T01:56:38Z")
Something that also bothers me, and someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but the police wouldn’t tell the family why they were being held face down in the dirt and in handcuffs. Now, don’t you have a right to informed of the charges against you? And ok, yes technically they weren’t actually charged with anything, the police were seeing if there was anything to charge them with, but the fact that they wouldn’t even tell them what they were suspected of doing bothers me. It seems to indicate to me a very arrogant attitude on the part of the cops. They stop the family based on **NOTHING** but a phone call. They didn’t tell the family why they were pulled over and handcuffed, and they didn’t shut the car door after being asked in order to keep the dog in, and then wound up shooting it. The whole thing is disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/149 "2003-01-14T02:24:07Z")
Summary: they created a state of disorder, and then “solved” it by blowing it away. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/150 "2003-01-14T03:12:49Z")
Wow, I just saw the video. THAT was the big scary dog? That could have been a squirrel. That was utterly pointless. That didn’t look like anyone responding to a threat: it looked like a jumpy officer discharging his weapon at a rather tiny dog who was just happy to be outside and free to run around. According to the family, the officers didn’t even bother to apologize after they found out the family was innocent and they simply let them go. Their hand-wringing came only after this became a media-event. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/151 "2003-01-14T03:14:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > **Something that also bothers me, and someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but the police wouldn’t tell the family why they were being held face down in the dirt and in handcuffs.** Are you sure? I thought I remembered one of the articles saying that the police told them they were being detained because they were indicated as possible robbery suspects or something to that effect (Can’t remember the exact wording). Can’t find it now, though… Found out some news, too. THP stated that one of its dispatchers was the one that changed the whole thing from an inquiry to alerting units of “possible robbery suspects,” and that some of the dispatchers are now under review by investigators… ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/152 "2003-01-14T16:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > And the comparison of “just following orders” to conduct a felony stop to “just following orders” in the murder of hundreds or thousands is a bad one at best, and a disgusting and insulting one at worst. You’re the one making that comparison, not me; I simply pointed out that ‘just following orders’ is not a defense. I’m not going to bother responding to the rest of your post until you cut out your Nazi comparisons, which will probably be never so goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/153 "2003-01-14T17:01:03Z")
**You’re the one making that comparison, not me; I simply pointed out that ‘just following orders’ is not a defense. I’m not going to bother responding to the rest of your post until you cut out your Nazi comparisons, which will probably be never so goodbye.** Face it, you made an obvious reference to the Holocaust. You may not want to admit or deal with it, but you’re the one who brought it up. No Holocaust, no Nuremberg trials. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/154 "2003-01-14T18:01:19Z")
—Face it, you made an obvious reference to the Holocaust.— You’re weaseling. You’re the one obsessed with the Holocaust, you’re the one who keeps pushing it. Get over it, and get back on point instead of trying to derail discussion with an utterly pointless “gotcha.” ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/155 "2003-01-14T18:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > \*\*You’re the one making that comparison, not me; I simply pointed out that ‘just following orders’ is not a defense. I’m not going to bother responding to the rest of your post until you cut out your Nazi comparisons, which will probably be never so goodbye. \*\* Fine, forget the whole nazi bit, then. However, that bit you’re using about “just following orders” in the 40s were people who were doing something they know was “evil,” so even barring the whole nazi comparison, they’re still not comparible scenarios. Pulling people over is something the police do, and when it’s possibly a high-risk stop (As the _dispatcher_ said it would be, it was not their conclusion), they do a felony stop to be safe. That isn’t illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/156 "2003-01-14T18:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > **were people who were doing something they know was "evil,"** Make that “evil and/or illegal” ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/157 "2003-01-15T01:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Joel_ > **Something that also bothers me, and someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but the police wouldn’t tell the family why they were being held face down in the dirt and in handcuffs.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*Are you sure? I thought I remembered one of the articles saying that the police told them they were being detained because they were indicated as possible robbery suspects or something to that effect (Can’t remember the exact wording). Can’t find it now, though… > > Found out some news, too. THP stated that one of its dispatchers was the one that changed the whole thing from an inquiry to alerting units of “possible robbery suspects,” and that some of the dispatchers are now under review by investigators… \*\* Well, like I said, somebody correct me if I’m wrong, and I guess I was. Wow, so not it’s turning out that it was a dispatcher that started it all. Sheeze, I wonder what developments will happen next. What other new information will come out about who else screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Virgowitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9fc348/32.png) [@Virgowitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Virgowitch)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050/158 "2003-01-18T00:48:42Z")
I saw the video. It messed me up for the rest of the day. The cops were absolute assholes. They should be arrested themselves. No one is safe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unfortunate-circumstance-or-police-misconduct/147050.md?page=7)