# "Ungevorfen"---is this a word?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 4, 2005, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354 "2005-05-04T11:49:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/1 "2005-05-04T11:49:09Z")
In today’s **For Better or For Worse** , Mike and Dee’s landlady uses it to describe the, I guess, general rudeness of recently departed tenants who left their former apartment in shambles. I’ve never heard it. Did Lynn misspell it, perhaps, or did she just make it up?
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### Author:  [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/2 "2005-05-04T12:11:25Z")
Not having read the strip or even knowing anything about it, I’m guessing it’s something like “unforgiveable” all mangled up by someone who’s really frustrated.
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### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/3 "2005-05-04T12:19:43Z")
Well, the entire speech is, “What schmutzics! Such ungeforven! Those people who moved out of this apartment should be ashamed!” The character is one of Lynn’s capital-E ethnics.
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### Author:  [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/4 "2005-05-04T12:27:01Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#):
>
> Well, the entire speech is, “What schmutzics! Such ungeforven! Those people who moved out of this apartment should be ashamed!” The character is one of Lynn’s capital-E ethnics.
This sounds like pseudo-German or -Yiddish.
schmutzig = German for “dirty”
There is no such word as “ungeforven” in German, but to a non-German speaker the word sounds German. The prefix un- is typical, it means non- or not-. The word brings to mind “unverfroren” (cheeky, impolite), so the sentence could be meant to signify “What dirty people! Such cheek!”
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### Author:  [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/5 "2005-05-04T12:30:28Z")
[Linky.](http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/001155.php)
Don’t know, possibly Jewish slang, or made to sound like a possible Jewish slang?
To me, it sounds like what some people do to an English word to make it sound German.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/6 "2005-05-04T12:49:16Z")
It was a movie.
With Clint Eastwood.
A Western, as I recall.
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### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/7 "2005-05-04T12:53:26Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> There is no such word as “ungeforven” in German, but to a non-German speaker the word sounds German. The prefix un- is typical, it means non- or not-. The word brings to mind “unverfroren” (cheeky, impolite), so the sentence could be meant to signify “What dirty people! Such cheek!”
Maybe she meant Unordnung (or a related Yiddish word), which means disarray or disorder?
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### Author:  [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/8 "2005-05-04T12:58:36Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#):
>
> It was a movie.
>
> With Clint Eastwood.
> A Western, as I recall.
Damnit. I wanted to use that reference when moving this thread. 😛
Off to **GQ**. (It was a toss-up between there and our **Cafe** ; however, I think the question has less to do with the strip than the word itself.)
- SkipMagic
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### Author:  [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/9 "2005-05-04T13:28:59Z")
Hallo, my suggestion would be that the term is actually…
**ungeworfen**
… because in German the “v” sound is written as a “w”.
The word “ungeworfen” appears to be the negative of “ **geworfen** ”, which is from the root “ **werfen** ” (werfen, warf, geworfen).
According to [this](http://www.iee.et.tu-dresden.de/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/wernerr/search.sh?string=geworfen&nocase=on&hits=50) dictionary site, one of the meanings of “werfen” is " **to breed"**.
So the character in the comic strip is saying “such ill-bred people!” or “how badly raised!”.
This would seem to fit the context of the cartoon, particularly since Professors are typically assumed to be cultered and “decent” (ie. unlikely to make a mess of an apartment).
No doubt _ein echter Kraut_ will be along soon to enlighten us, but that’s my WAG!
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### Author:  [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/10 "2005-05-04T14:42:13Z")
> [@e-logic](#):
>
> Hallo, my suggestion would be that the term is actually…
>
> **ungeworfen**
>
> … because in German the “v” sound is written as a “w”.
>
> No doubt _ein echter Kraut_ will be along soon to enlighten us, but that’s my WAG!
I am a real Kraut and while “ungeworfen” would be a real if unusual word, it does not make any sense in this context. “werfen” = to throw, “ungeworfen” = not thrown, unthrown.
The connection to “Unordnung” (mess) is the better guess.
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### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/11 "2005-05-04T14:56:50Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> I am a real Kraut and while “ungeworfen” would be a real if unusual word, it does not make any sense in this context. “werfen” = to throw, “ungeworfen” = not thrown, unthrown.
>
> The connection to “Unordnung” (mess) is the better guess.
While I’d love to be correct 🆒, it will probably take someone who knows Yiddish well to sort this out (unless it’s a sort of pseudo German in which case all bets are off).
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### Author:  [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/12 "2005-05-04T15:15:03Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> I am a real Kraut and while “ungeworfen” would be a real if unusual word, it does not make any sense in this context. “werfen” = to throw, “ungeworfen” = not thrown, unthrown.
>
> The connection to “Unordnung” (mess) is the better guess.
Fair enough, I thought it might be an archaic usage (and thus more likely to remain in American Yiddish, which has its roots IIUC in older forms of German).
The list of definitions I saw was:
> [@](#):
>
> aphoristic – kurz hingeworfen
> to bowl – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> **to breed (bred,bred) – werfen (warf,geworfen)**
> to bring forth – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Tier)
> to bung – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to calve – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to cast (cast,cast) – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to chuck – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to clap – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to come up – aufgeworfen werden (Frage)
> to cub – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Zoologie)
> to dart – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to dash – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to drive (drove,driven) – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to drop – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to farrow – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Ferkel)
> to fling (flung,flung) – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to be flunk out – von der Schule geworfen werden
> to foal – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Fohlen)
> to hurl – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to jerk – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> jetsam – die über Bord geworfenen Güter
> jumbly – zusammengeworfen
> to kitten – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Katzen)
> to launch – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to pitch – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> he played ducks and drakes with my money – er hat mein Geld zum Fenster hinausgeworfen
> to plunge in at the deep end – ins kalte Wasser geworfen werden
> pouting – aufgeworfen
> to project – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Bild)
> prostrate – hingeworfen
> to pup – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> to reverberate – zurückgeworfen werden
> to shoot (shot,shot) – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Blicke)
> to shy [at] – werfen (warf,geworfen) [nach]
> to sling (slung,slung) – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> stormtossed – vom Sturm hin- und hergeworfen
> to take a toss – abgeworfen werden (vom Pferd)
> to throw (threw,thrown) [at] – werfen (warf,geworfen) [auf,nach]
> to toss – hin und her geworfen werden
> to toss – umhergeworfen werden
> to toss – werfen (warf,geworfen)
> upset – umgeworfen
> he was bowled over by hat – das hat ihn umgeworfen
> to whelp – werfen (warf,geworfen) (Zoologie)
The word seemed to have lots of links to animals (breeding, whelping, calving, foaling) which fits the idea of the “schmutzics”.
Although its primary meaning is “to throw” in a literal sense (ie. throw a ball) there seems to be a strong figurative link to giving birth - “thrown into the world” - and hence upbringing.
I’m just having trouble seeing how “Unordnung” mutates into “Ungevorfen”; I can certainly imagine that an English-speaking author would transcribe “unge_w_orfen” into “unge_v_orfen” - in much the same way as “Wolfgang” would be transcribed “Volfgang”.
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### Author:  [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/13 "2005-05-04T15:25:54Z")
It certainly looks to be a Yiddish word, rather than a mis-spelling of a modern German term:
“Zachen fun paner gevorfen in vaser” meynt, az heyoys ayer kroyve iz
arayngefalen tsu di bolshevikes, hot zi gemust likvidiren say farmegn, say
dokumenten, say geld,velkhe hobn zi gekont kompromitiren in di oygen fun di"
But I can’t translate well enough to work out what that says! The subtitle is “folks froi, paner” but that doesn’t help me either 😉
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### Author:  [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/14 "2005-05-04T15:27:12Z")
> [@e-logic](#):
>
> Fair enough, I thought it might be an archaic usage (and thus more likely to remain in American Yiddish, which has its roots IIUC in older forms of German).
Possibly.
> [@](#):
>
> The word seemed to have lots of links to animals (breeding, whelping, calving, foaling) which fits the idea of the “schmutzics”.
>
> Although its primary meaning is “to throw” in a literal sense (ie. throw a ball) there seems to be a strong figurative link to giving birth - “thrown into the world” - and hence upbringing.
But the translation would be “unborn” rather than “uncouth, uneducated”.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m just having trouble seeing how “Unordnung” mutates into “Ungevorfen”; I can certainly imagine that an English-speaking author would transcribe “unge_w_orfen” into “unge_v_orfen” - in much the same way as “Wolfgang” would be transcribed “Volfgang”.
True. If it is not a Yiddish word and not a typo, my best guess is that it is a word made to sound German or Yiddish.
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### Author:  [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/15 "2005-05-04T15:42:23Z")
> [@e-logic](#):
>
> “Zachen fun paner gevorfen in vaser” meynt, az heyoys ayer kroyve iz
> arayngefalen tsu di bolshevikes, hot zi gemust likvidiren say farmegn, say
> dokumenten, say geld,velkhe hobn zi gekont kompromitiren in di oygen fun di"
As far as I can make it out it means “thrown” (geworfen) in this context.
“Things thrown from […] into […]” means that [something or other] has fallen to the bolshevikhs, she had to liquidate her farm, her documents, her money which could possibly compromise …
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/16 "2005-05-04T16:16:37Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> As far as I can make it out it means “thrown” (geworfen) in this context.
>
> “Things thrown from […] into […]” means that [something or other] has fallen to the bolshevikhs, she had to liquidate her farm, her documents, her money which could possibly compromise …
It’s “Things thrown from [paner?] into water” means that our own relative has fallen to the Bolsheviks, she had to liquidate her farm, her documents, her money, which could possibly compromise her in your eyes"
I think.
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/17 "2005-05-04T17:22:56Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> I am a real Kraut and while “ungeworfen” would be a real if unusual word, it does not make any sense in this context. “werfen” = to throw, “ungeworfen” = not thrown, unthrown.
>
> The connection to “Unordnung” (mess) is the better guess.
Though not a real Kraut, I studied lots of German in college, and remember that there is a special meaning to _gewerfen_ in this context. It means “born”, but is only said of animals, sort of like “to calve” in English. With remarkable mean-spiritedness, the German nobility also used _geworfen_ of commoners, while reserving _geboren_ for their own kind.
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/18 "2005-05-04T17:24:24Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> Though not a real Kraut, I studied lots of German in college, and remember that there is a special meaning to _gewerfen_ in this context. .
That’d be **geworfen** , not gewerfen.
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### Author:  [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/19 "2005-05-05T15:02:13Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> Though not a real Kraut, I studied lots of German in college, and remember that there is a special meaning to _gewerfen_ in this context. It means “born”, but is only said of animals, sort of like “to calve” in English. With remarkable mean-spiritedness, the German nobility also used _geworfen_ of commoners, while reserving _geboren_ for their own kind.
I know that “werfen” can also mean “to give birth” for animals, as in “to whelp”. However, as previously stated, this would make “ungeworfen” mean “unborn”, not “uncouth, impolite, etc.”.
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### Author:  [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ungevorfen-is-this-a-word/302354/20 "2005-05-05T15:20:24Z")
> [@DemonSpawn](#):
>
> I know that “werfen” can also mean “to give birth” for animals, as in “to whelp”. However, as previously stated, this would make “ungeworfen” mean “unborn”, not “uncouth, impolite, etc.”.
Yes, but “unborn” is essentially the same as “ill-bred” - I agree it makes little sense in modern German, but the archaic root combined with the American influence may give the Yiddish term this extra layer of social meaning.