# Unhappy Meals **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2000, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020 "2000-06-20T18:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/81 "2000-06-23T18:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > pldennison > > How about for the same reason you don’t show your 6 year old Friday the 13th or Phantasm? > > When they are more mature you can give them this information and let them make their own decisions. OK. So why is it alright for McDonald’s to advertise their products to your children and affiliate themselves so heavily with Disney movies in an effort to build brand loyalty in grade-school children? Are they mature enough to make THAT decision? Do you think maybe McD’s shouldn’t make young children a target market? > [@](#): > > Again there is a right way and a wrong way. PETA chose the wrong way for the media attention. I’m sure that with you there’s no right way for vegetarians to choose media attention. ---
**Author:** ![Sledman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@Sledman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sledman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/82 "2000-06-23T19:02:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I’m sure that with you there’s no right way for vegetarians to choose media attention. > > \*\* Congratulations… That is the most ignorant thing you have said yet. Again where have I slammed vegetarians other than calling them stupid for allowing PETA to be their national spokesperson? Also without realizing you answered the question I asked way up in this thread. Disney is the one with the anti-hunting message using those fun little animals. Guess both sides are getting some mileage out of this one. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/83 "2000-06-23T19:07:43Z")
Vanilla, I said, “Fat vegetarian ass” in general. I doubt he’s a sheep fucker too, but you aren’t taking up arms over all the insulted sheep fuckers in the world. > [@](#): > > Pardon me for the tangent, but coming from someone who is a member of one of the most missionary > religions in the world, that’s pretty funny We don’t go after children shit-for-brains, especially school-age children. And we DON’T pass out little bags o’fun that includes Satan and all the reasons the school-age children are going to hell. > [@](#): > > f showing them where dinner came from is scary, maybe that says something about their dinner. What’s scary is the fucking clown holding a bloody knife. I don’t know how many slaughter houses YOU’VE been to, but I’ve been to quite a few myself, and I have never seen a clown holding a bloody knife. That is what’s scary. > [@](#): > > One life? Right. There’s cost/benefit analysis for you. It has nothing to do with cost/benefit, or animal rights, fucknutt. It has everything to do with Human Life. Some person I will never meet who is dying of some rare disease is more important to me than 1 million lab rats, or cats, or monkeys. And if it takes 1 million to find an acceptable cure, then so be it. > [@](#): > > Yep. And I have every FUCKING RIGHT to show you where your coat came from. I know where it comes from dickweed. My best friend’s family owned a mink farm. I was THERE when they killed and skinned them. I know the whole process. And there’s nothing inhumane about it. But ofcourse YOU wouldn’t know it, because you are a PETA drone, and God forbid they actually show the TRUTH about anything, it’s all propaganda. > [@](#): > > ``` > I do not endorse criminal trespass or vandalism in the cause of animal rights. Or anything else. > > ``` But your lovely organization does. > [@](#): > > The city of Cleveland has given away tens of millions of dollars in property tax abatements to > billionaire developers over the last two decades. The city of Cleveland has some of the worst schools in > the nations. A large portion of those tens of millions of dollars would have gone to the schools. You do > the fucking math. Until you do, don’t talk to me about “the community.” The community went to the > people and the city, and told them, “Give all the abatements you want, but you’ll have to make up the > schools’ portion from another part of the city budget.” You know what happened? The mayor of > Cleveland actively campaigned against the schools, and he LIED to the public, telling them that > the people wanted to \>gasp\< KILL future development in Cleveland by ENDING tax abatements. Is this an arguement against community involvement or corporate sponsership? By the looks of it, Cleveland should be grateful for every deal the school districts work out with McDs, and Coke. Oh, and BTW, the COMMUNITY voted in the Mayor, and can vote him out again. Right now if you really wanted to. That’s what’s so nice about living in a democracy. So, you and your fellow voters share with the responsibility. > [@](#): > > They aren’t asking YOU to do anything. YOU don’t even have to get up off your fat > vegetarian, PETA-loving, cow kissing ass. > > ``` > . . . but nobody has said anything bad about vegetarians in general, right? > > ``` Well, that was my first post in this thread, and as far as I can see, I’m also the only one who said anything against vegetarians in general, so don’t go off on the rest of the posters. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/84 "2000-06-23T19:10:54Z")
> [@](#): > > OK. So why is it alright for McDonald’s to advertise their products to your children and affiliate themselves so heavily with Disney movies in an effort to build brand loyalty in grade-school children? Are they mature enough to make THAT decision? Do you think maybe McD’s shouldn’t make young children a target market? Sheesh, PL, can’t you tell the difference between advertising and giving kids bloody nightmares? Showing a 6 year old child pictures of slaughterhouses and clowns with bloody knives is just plain sick! I am absolutely no fan of Mickey D’s, and I believe people would be healthier if they were vegetarian. The way to convert people is to show them the benefits of giving up meat; lower body fat, less chance of heart disease, and a lower risk of cancer. Scare tactics and exaggerated rhetoric just make PETA look deranged. There’s a lot wrong with the way animals are raised, not least creating antibiotic-resistant bacteria through giving cows antibiotics in their feed. Reason, not fear, is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/85 "2000-06-23T19:23:23Z")
“We don’t go after children,shit-for-brians”. Lovely, Pepper. We? So you are a good example of a missionary, which language like that? My son has eaten meat, chicken and pigs. I told him where it came from; dead animals. I suppose if I showed him the film footage of a slaughterhouse, and how they drop the carcasses on the floor, pick them back up again to be used, without washing them, I assume(and Hope) he’d feel differently about meat. BTW, Pl doesn’t live in Cleveland anymore(he lived in a suburb anyway) nor do I, and I’m sure lots of folks would be happy to throw a party if Michael White left office. Lets just tell kids thta meat is something you buy in a store, pre-packaged, and just waiting for you to eat it(after cooking of course). I see nothing wrong with raising animals on a farm, then killing a healthy one and eating it, but thats not expeditious. PETA has every right to put their message out there, its not like they are invited by the schools to come and speak. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/86 "2000-06-23T19:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > “We don’t go after children,shit-for-brians”. Lovely, Pepper. > We? So you are a good example of a missionary, which language like that? What is your problem Vanilla? “We” in general. “Fat-ass vegetarians” in general. “Shit-for-brains”…well, he hasn’t given me any reason to think he’s not. This is the Pit. I have every right to call anybody I want whatever I feel is appropriate. Get off your high-horse ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/87 "2000-06-23T19:32:20Z")
[QUOTE] \*\* It has nothing to do with cost/benefit, or animal rights, fucknutt. It has everything to do with Human Life. Some person I will never meet who is dying of some rare disease is more important to me than 1 million lab rats, or cats, or monkeys. And if it takes 1 million to find an acceptable cure, then so be it. [QUOTE] Being the misanthrope that I am (and a meat-eating one with a vegan wife), I have to say that that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. And somehow it doesn’t surprise me that it came from you. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/88 "2000-06-23T19:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **PLD** : > I do not endorse criminal trespass or vandalism in the cause of animal rights. Or anything else. > > **peppelandgirl** But your lovely organization does. This is an out-and-out lie, and I demand you cite supporting evidence or retract it. > [@](#): > > Is this an arguement against community involvement or corporate sponsership? By the looks of it, Cleveland should be grateful for every deal the school districts work out with McDs, and Coke. Or, you know, billionaire developers can pay their goddamned property taxes just like the working folks have to. Christ, Cleveland Stadium was built with $400 million in taxpayer money – TAXPAYER MONEY – then the keys turned over to billionaire Al Lerner, team owner and CEO of MBNA, who will pay a pittance of rent and not a cent of property tax. Talk about a double fucking. > [@](#): > > Oh, and BTW, the COMMUNITY voted in the Mayor, and can vote him out again. Right now if you really wanted to. That’s what’s so nice about living in a democracy. So, you and your fellow voters share with the responsibility. Holy shit, are you an idiot. To begin with, there’s the fact that I don’t live in Cleveland now, and I didn’t before. I did live close enough for it to be an important issue. There’s also the issue of the city council to contend with. ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/89 "2000-06-23T20:01:57Z")
Okay, so I don’t read much here (BBQ Pit), and I post even less–point of fact, I’m a fairly new poster to begin with but I’ve certainly lurked literally and vicariously long enough to know the scores. I’ve avoided posting in this thread, however passionate I am about animal issues, vegetarianism, and PETA, in particular because I haven’t the time and energy to devote to debate where it appears the participants don’t appear interested in true debate rather are looking for an argument from PETA supporters or others to agree with their synopsis. Unfortunately it seems someone (other than my husband, I will point out) has brought me into this debate by reference, and I feel the necessity to participate now. So I will address the reference to me and how I am spoken to, and make some comments of my own (unPit-worthy they may or may not be). I’ll have to start with a [hijack] since she brought me into this, I’ll address her comments directly… > [@](#): > > Jodih comments: > Oh, and attempt to keep a civil tongue in your head if and when you reply, or you won’t see any response from me. I have better things to do with my time than reply to impotent dickheads who can’t even track what the topic of a single thread is. I don’t think that’s asking too much. I doubt you talk to your wife that way; she doesn’t look like the type that would stand it, and neither will I. > > _To which my betrothed replied:_ > > b) You don’t even know my wife, and that fact that she has begun posting here doesn’t entitle you to make assumptions about her. If you have a question for her, ask her. > c) She’s seen and heard of your posts for some time now, and she pretty much thinks you’re a cunt, too, although she’d never use the word. First, I am uncertain what your comment “she doesn’t look like the type that would stand it…” is to mean. Are you speaking literally or metaphorically? That is, I am uncertain whether you have actually seen photos of me which lead you to believe I wouldn’t stand for it or merely messages posted. Second, I concede you are right, he does not speak to his wife “that way” as I give him no cause to address me as such. He and I are capable of having a constructive and even heated debate by keeping open minds, listening to rational arguments and eventually reaching either consensus, compromise or an agreement to disagree without having it degenerate so sadly to name-calling. He wouldn’t think to call me a “cunt” anymore than I would think to call him a “dickhead.” [SIDENOTE: He’s far from impotent, dear, but thanks for the concern! ;)] Third, He’s right, I wouldn’t use that word in response to you because I don’t much care for it. Rather, I’d use some language (that is, several words together) that I am lead to believe you would profess to believe: A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly…The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit. (Proverbs 15:1,2, 4) He who loves a quarrel loves sin… (Pr. 17:19) Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. (Ephesians 5:33) Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit…For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12:33, 37) I trust you see my point here and will reconsider colorful metaphors and harsh words when calling _the kettle black._ (See, Phil’s **just** an atheist. I am a _reformed_ born again Christian, Methodist, and devout student of scripture–I evangelized my way through junior high and high school; i.e. I know of what I speak. (And I sure wouldn’t have let any of those words out of **my** mouth, but I’m not here to judge–I’ll leave that to your God.) > [@](#): > > _PLD adds:_ > d) It’s extremely tacky to attempt to co-opt another person’s spouse as a tacit supporter of your position. FTR, she feels more strongly about the animal rights topic than I do. I don’t entirely believe that Jodi was challenging my beliefs in animal rights and support for PETA (its hard to tell), but if there is any question, all are welcome to visit my website.[/hijack] [hijack2] Since the OP is “Unhappy Meals,” but has degenerated to a PETA-slamfest and all PETA campaigns fair game, I consider this response a hijack since it addresses another one which has been reference in the posts preceding. > [@](#): > > PLD said: > I never, and have never, at any time claimed that every PETA campaign was brilliantly conceived, so it doesn’t rankle at all. For the record, my wife and I told them we thought “Got Beer?” was a pretty stupid idea. As I am a believe in substantiating and supportive evidence, I submit a copy of an e-mail authored by me. It was in response to a group of AR advocates debating the worth of the “Got Beer” campaign and how a few there were also fell prey to close-mindedness and name-calling rather than true debate (as well as the response I received from PETA). Its long, so I’ll not include it here but ask those interested to go right ahead and [read it.](http://www.geocities.com/la_peta/compassion.html) [/hijack2] On to points of relevance to the OP and PETA: 1. Please keep in mind that while you may refer to PETA as only the managerial and operation segment of the organization headquartered in Norfolk, VA; the title belongs to not only that staff but to all the supporters and thus, to insult “PETA” insults the most vocal and the not-so-vocal. Those who believe 100% of their creed and those who do not. All those who hold religious or political affiliates—or any group which maintain a platform and doctrines—ask yourself (1) if you believe everything the group stands for 100% and (2) if you wish the most vocal minority of your group to represent you 100%, 24-7-365. 2. Can I assume anyone commenting on [PETA’s campaign(s)](http://www.peta-online.org) has actually gone to their website and read about the campaigns and viewed the materials and intentions of the group first-hand so as not to be swayed by possible prejudice or unbalanced presentation? Perhaps then you’ve also investigated the court cases involving [AR advocates and McDonald’s](http://www.mcspotlight.org)? 3. PETA’s _beef_ with McDonald’s stems from a lot of background/history between the two organizations. It stems from McD’s being found culpable in a UK court for cruelty on **ITS** farms and refusing to change adequate changes in practice. It this all was just about fast food meat-production and consumption PETA would target EVERYONE—Rally’s, Wendy’s, BK, Chick-Fil-A, et al. 4. Shall I assume that those referring to “terrorist” activities by PETA as well as their screaming or pushing materials in people’s faces have witnessed this first hand? Have you been approached or reproached by a PETA member for eating meat, wearing fur/leather, etc.? Have you passed or attended a PETA-sponsored demonstration? Have you investigated the source of your foods—ever read about, seen, or visited factory farms or slaughterhouse floors? 5. If it were not for PETA’s outrageous media ploys, they would be just as unrecognized as other anti-cruelty organizations. Let’s face it, without publicity, no cause has snowball’s chance in hell. Unfortunately, often the ONLY campaigns covered are the most outrageous…there’s no so called _news_ value in the quiet, diligent work they do to help animals and people. Further, people supporting animal testing are quick to say “if it saves just one life, its worth it” but don’t seem to understand that this is PETA’s position as well. And, since they have nothing to gain fiscally from these campaigns (someone here even said that PETA couldn’t expect this to GAIN them members), why pursue them? Perhaps to get the attention and hopefully have an opportunity to speak on the deeper issues (both in the media and one-on-one with the public). 6. Often I hear how people are “of course opposed to animal cruelty” and yet the minute PETA (or even I) try to talk straight about the issues and inform people of just what goes on (not only for the animals but for the health and worker risks involved in meat production), suddenly no one wants to listen. The response I get too often, “Oh, don’t tell me about… [factory farms, slaughterhouse cruelty, etc.] or I’ll never be able to eat meat again.” Well, that’s exactly my point. I didn’t stop eating meat because I didn’t love the taste of it—I did enjoy it, believe me. I was TAUGHT at an early age to like meat; as a matter of fact, because of our economic circumstances, I was taught that meat was a wonderful luxury item. BUT I stopped eating it because I could not look myself in the mirror knowing I was responsible for such blatant abuse of other living, breathing, feeling beings. I’m not speaking merely of the act of slaughtering an animal for consumption here either; that is only one small issue. I refer to the utter cruelty in which they are raised, transported and inhumanely put to dead. It appears to me (at least) that what people mean is: “Of course I am opposed to animal cruelty so long as it does not involve personal discomfort or sacrifice on my part.” (But I digress…) 7. As I understand from previous statements then, that it’s okay for corporations to teach children at a very young age to eat meat but wrong for other organizations to try and teach them not to eat meat? Again this seems paradoxical to me… 8. PETA’s official policy is to discourage and disavow illegal activities involving any form of assault, battery, vandalism or theft. They are not the ALF (Animal Liberation Front). They encourage peaceful (though often loud) demonstrations, table displays, billboards, etc. to communicate their messages. 9. On the subject of school sponsorships by large corporations, comments have been made that its just about money for _the children_, the source is irrelevant so long as it saves tax-payers money. Well, drug dealers have a lot of money—let’s get them to sponsor our schools. (BTW, I think I’m looking at a sad double standard here; it seems that people don’t want PETA pushing their literature and toys at children but its okay for corporations to do so—why? Because they’re pictures are prettier and more appealing.) 1. Lastly, I suppose PLD is particularly sensitive since not only have we been members of PETA, but when that child in Cleveland did stone a mother cat and her kittens (all but one) to death because he was “bored” I contacted PETA to see [what we/they could do to help this child.](http://www.peta-online.org/mc/facts/fsc24.html) PETA began a letter-writing campaign asking the juvenile prosecutor to pursue the matter. When I appeared on our local news affiliate on PETA’s behalf to discuss the case and OUR mutual hope that the boy receive counseling as a result of the court intervention in this blatant case of cruelty (so he wouldn’t someday decide to bash a schoolmate, sibling or stranger (human) with a big rock), one of the \* professional\* broadcasters referred to me as a “PETA kook”—on air. I do actually have other things to do/accomplish today but felt compelled to provide **(HOPEFULLY)** some perspective on the PETA issue as well as some constructive and compelling arguments (if you’ve held on long enough to read ‘em all). Now, flame me if you must—won’t be the first time I’ve been burned for standing up for what I believe in and hopefully it won’t be the last. If I am a _kook_ at least I am one for compassionate’s sake. [Parting Shot] As far as being a mindless-drone and supporter of an extremist organization with fanatical doctrine, I haven’t been one of those since I left my church. (No offense RTF if you read this! :)) G’day! ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/90 "2000-06-23T20:03:26Z")
pepper: “we in general”. You meant Mormon missionaries, didn’t you? “fat assed vegetarians in General”? Can you give me a cite where it proves most vegetarians"in general" are fat assed? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/91 "2000-06-23T20:57:17Z")
Vanilla, it’s very noble to rush to the defense of Mormons and vegetarians. Although, I didn’t offend Mormons, but that’s obviously not the point. But if you are going after two comments, please go after them all. Including the sheep fucking, goat felching, dickweed, dickhead, impotent…well I was going to list them all but I don’t have time. > [@](#): > > ``` > PLD: > I do not endorse criminal trespass or vandalism in the cause of animal rights. Or > anything else. > > peppelandgirlBut your lovely organization does. > > This is an out-and-out lie, and I demand you cite supporting evidence or retract it. > > ``` Oh, I’m sorry, this is obviously something I dreamed up somewhere. Of course, no animal rights activist has ever thrown red paint on a fur coat. > [@](#): > > Have you investigated the source of your foods—ever > read about, seen, or visited factory farms or slaughterhouse floors? Yes, actually I have. I never saw a problem. > [@](#): > > Oh, don’t tell me about… [factory farms, slaughterhouse cruelty, etc.] or I’ll > never be able to eat meat again." Well, that’s exactly my point. I didn’t stop eating meat because I > didn’t love the taste of it—I did enjoy it, believe me. I was TAUGHT at an early age to like meat; as a > matter of fact, because of our economic circumstances, I was taught that meat was a wonderful luxury > item. BUT I stopped eating it because I could not look myself in the mirror knowing I was responsible > for such blatant abuse of other living, breathing, feeling beings. I’m not speaking merely of the act of > slaughtering an animal for consumption here either; that is only one small issue. I refer to the utter > cruelty in which they are raised, transported and inhumanely put to dead. It appears to me (at least) > that what people mean is: “Of course I am opposed to animal cruelty so long as it does not involve > personal discomfort or sacrifice on my part.” (But I digress…) You could probably give me a full description with colored pictures of what you think the slaughterhouses are like. Wait, never mind. Been there, done that. It didn’t make me feel a bit sorry for the “poor animals.” However, when animal rights activists sabotage mink farms, it makes me feel very sorry for the families that count on that money to make a living. > [@](#): > > 1. As I understand from previous statements then, that it’s okay for corporations to teach children at a > very young age to eat meat but wrong for other organizations to try and teach them not to eat meat? > Again this seems paradoxical to me… No, it’s not paradoxil Here’s why… McDonald’s is not SCARING children into eating meat. They are not using images of carrots running around with children’s heads, or something equally ridiculous. They are not using sabotage tactics or over-hyped propaganda. PETA is going to use a clown wielding a bloody knife. Do you see a difference? If you don’t, then I feel very sorry for your children. > [@](#): > > 1. On the subject of school sponsorships by large corporations, comments have been made that its > just about money for the children, the source is irrelevant so long as it saves tax-payers money. Well, > drug dealers have a lot of money—let’s get them to sponsor our schools Well, that’s just a stupid arguement, seeing as how Coca Cola is not illegal but Cocaine is. I’ve been going to public schools for 12 years now, and I have never seen a new book, not one, in that entire time. That’s just one very small example of the situation we are in. If McDs or Coca Cola wants to contribute money to buying new books and remodeling some of the older, more dangerous, sections of the schools, well I don’t see a problem. Just because McDs is shelling out money, does not mean the children are FORCED to eat it. And McD’s are not using scare tactics either. Advertisments in schools does not equal nightmares and scarring children for life. I find it very comendable for everybody to stand up for what they believe, no matter what that belief is. However, I do have a problem when ANYBODY forced their beliefs onto me, or children. And that is exactly what PETA is going to do this summer. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/92 "2000-06-23T21:03:28Z")
PETA, your post is so rational that I can’t resist replying, though I know it’s probably futile to persuade a wife that her husband might possibly be in the wrong. First, and I feel like quite the idiot as I confess this, I never took your Board name to indicate a strong affiliation with this particular organization; I just thought it was a pretty name. So if I’ve to date missed a connection that would be obvious to someone a little swifter on the uptake, I apologize. Secondly, you say: > [@](#): > > Unfortunately it seems someone (other than my husband, I will point out) has brought me into this debate by reference, and I feel the necessity to participate now. Actually, it was not my intention to drag you into this worthless mess, which hardly qualifies as a debate, except to the extent that I hazarded a guess that your husband doesn’t speak to you as viciously and rudely as he sees fit to speak to people he doesn’t even know. Sort of a “do you kiss your mother with that mouth?” I also note from your response that you understood that as my motivation perfectly well – something that seems to have escaped your be-, er, other half. > [@](#): > > First, I am uncertain what your comment “she doesn’t look like the type that would stand it…” is to mean. Are you speaking literally or metaphorically? That is, I am uncertain whether you have actually seen photos of me which lead you to believe I wouldn’t stand for it or merely messages posted. Actually, both. Your posts consistently reveal a rational and pleasant personality and your picture reveals a woman who, though smiling, looks at the camera directly and calmly. Neither impression of you leads me to believe you would stand for the sort of disrespect we are discussing. > [@](#): > > Second, I concede you are right, he does not speak to his wife “that way” as I give him no cause to address me as such. Not that it’s really any of my business, but this appears to indicate that you would allow him to speak to you “that way” if he felt it was justified. And maybe that’s true; I don’t know you well enough to know. Personally, I don’t feel that’s _ever_ justified, but I’ll freely admit that may be just me. > [@](#): > > He and I are capable of having a constructive and even heated debate by keeping open minds, listening to rational arguments and eventually reaching either consensus, compromise or an agreement to disagree without having it degenerate so sadly to name-calling. He wouldn’t think to call me a “cunt” anymore than I would think to call him a “dickhead.” In all honestly, I wonder how you manage it. I mean, step back and review the exchanges in this case: 1. Phil is offended that people – including me – question the sanity of PETA people and the wisdom of the “Unhappy Meals” campaign. He doesn’t post to say so; he just fulminates over it. I, of course, do not know I have insulted him, because I (a) do not know he belongs to this organization; and (b) he does not post to let me or anyone know he is offended. 2. Phil finally posts, ALREADY in rant mode – and if you can find an “open mind” or a “rational argument” in his first post, you’ve done better than I. If he was at this point attempting the “constructive debate” you claim he is capable of, he was hiding it well. Re-read his first post and tell me, honestly, that you disagree. Also in his first post, he refers to the people who have posted before him as “goat-felchers” and “fucking jackasses.” He later defends this on two grounds, neither defensible: (1) I, and others, insulted him first, which of course doesn’t wash because neither I nor, I presume anyone else, had any idea we were insulting him, since he didn’t bother to say so; and (2) that’s the sort of thing you can expect in the Pit, which, of course, makes no sense at all. If insults are de rigueur in the Pit, then he had no right to be insulted by mine. If taking them personally is the order of the day, then he can hardly claim he posted them under some implied Pit etiquette. The irony here is that I actually _did_ take his initial comments as run-of-the-mill, we’re-in-the-Pit, throw-in-some-insults remarks. At which point I, in the same spirit, cheerfully invited him to kiss my ass. 3. At this point, Phil can either interpret things two ways. Either the insults are seriously made, in which case my telling him to kiss my ass is entirely justified by him previously calling me a “jackass” and a “goat-felcher,” or the insults are _not_ seriously made, in which case he’s obligated to take them lightly. He does neither; choosing instead to call me a “cunt,” thereby blowing away any chance of reasonable discourse. Did I then call him a prick and a dickhead? You damn right I did; once someone throws that particular epithet at me, the gloves are off. The irony _here_ is that I could have called him a heck of a lot worse than that, but didn’t. Oh, and as an aside: Phil has strongly hinted that “he said it first!” is no defense, but of course it is; the most effective way to invite an insult _from_ someone is to hurl an insult _at_ someone. I assure you I would not have called him a prick or a dickhead had he not _first_ chosen to call _me_ a term he surely knew would offend me deeply. > [@](#): > > [SIDENOTE: He’s far from impotent, dear, but thanks for the concern!] Um, I meant “impotent” in the sense of “impotent anger,” which those sort of frothing out-of-control rants generally indicate. (And here I am _again_ exercising restraint he hardly deserves by refraining from alluding to certain personal matters he was foolish enough to post some time ago.) > [@](#): > > Third, He’s right, I wouldn’t use that word in response to you because I don’t much care for it. Well, that makes two of us. > [@](#): > > A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly…The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit. (Proverbs 15:1,2, 4) He who loves a quarrel loves sin… (Pr. 17:19) Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. (Ephesians 5:33) Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit…For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12:33, 37) “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a hars word stirs up anger”? Very wise words. Please do me a favor and tattoo them on your husband’s forehead. > [@](#): > > I trust you see my point here and will reconsider colorful metaphors and harsh words when calling the kettle black. Actually, it’s unlikely I will. A person who intentionally delivers to another the most vile and outrageous insult they can think of takes their chances in the response they will get. I can only trust, that having taken the time to admonish me for my part in it – an admonishment I do you the courtesy of believing is kindly meant even if not invited – that you will equally take your husband to task for his addresses to me. Nothing in his posts to date lead me to believe he will _listen_ to you, but I invite you to try. > [@](#): > > I don’t entirely believe that Jodi was challenging my beliefs in animal rights and support for PETA (its hard to tell), but if there is any question, all are welcome to visit my website.[/hijack] Which, of course, I wasn’t, and no one reading my comments would think I was. I was questioning his behavior and hazarding a guess – and a correct one – that he would not treat his wife as poorly as he treats others he does not know. I would be happy to debate with you the efficacy of PETA campaigns such as “Unhappy Meals,” if you want. While I acknoweldge your apparent belief that the campaign is effective and justified, I stand by _my_ belief that it is idiotic and counter-productive. If you want to discuss or debate that further, we sure can. I extend to you the high degree of respect that I extend to every poster until they show themselves to be unworthy of it, which is why I am refraining – at some effort, I must say – from telling you in exquisite detail precisely what I think of Phil. Despite my anger – and I am VERY angry – I have not taken leave of my senses enough to believe that any wife wants to hear ill of her husband. VANILLA – I see you taking Pepper to task for insulting Phil. I must have missed the part where you took Phil to task for insulting me. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/93 "2000-06-23T21:16:35Z")
jodih: You’re a real saint. See, here’s the thing: I _already_ know what you think of me. I also know what my wife (among others) thinks of you. I doubt you care as little about the latter as I do the former. So go ahead and say it, toots–you ain’t telling me anything new, and it will only serve to further illustrate your now legendary hypocrisy. You know what the distinction is? _I don’t fool myself regarding what people think of me/_ But whatever. :rolleyes: pepperlandgirl: Apparently you are so bereft of any manner of reading comprehension that you don’t understand the question. I said: “I do not endorse criminal trespass or vandalism in the cause of animal rights. Or anything else.” You said: "But your lovely organization does. " I replied: “This is an out-and-out lie, and I demand you cite supporting evidence or retract it.” And, idiotically, you reply: “Oh, I’m sorry, this is obviously something I dreamed up somewhere. Of course, no animal rights activist has ever thrown red paint on a fur coat.” Nope, sorry, that doesn’t cut it. You said “your wonderful organization,” which means you believe PETA advocates, encourages and engages in vandalism. You didn’t say, “some activists,” you said “your organization.” Prove it. Not some individual–I want official PETA literature. If you can’t produce it, I expect a retraction. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/94 "2000-06-23T21:34:03Z")
Oh, incidentally, I’d like to remind everyone that, after the infamous Phaedrus Wars, when I had Sock Puppet Master posters e-mailing me to threaten me with the name of a United States Congressman and a lawsuit, and I took some time off the board, partly because I was so stressed and angry and unfocused, oh-so-compassionate-and-sensible-and-nice jodih, with no reason whatsoever, stopped by a thread to call me a crybaby and a jerk. Carry on. I apologize for calling jodih a “cunt,” those of you who are absolutely flabbergasted by the word. Suffice to say I vehemently dislike her, and think her faults outweigh her good qualities by a significant margin. Let it also be noted that I have never made it a secret that I am a vegetarian, advocate for animal rights, and a member of PETA, and to claim otherwise is sheer lunacy. If someone hasn’t seen it, it isn’t because I haven’t said it. I see anti-vegetarian threads pop up here with increasing frequency. I see my wife referred to as a “kook” by a network-affiliate local news broadcaster on the air. I see people take time from their day to send her abusive, obscene e-mail after reading her website. I get my beliefs mocked and insulted in a way that would be absolutely inexcusable if they were religious in basis. I’ve had quite enough of it, thank you, and refuse to sit still for it. You don’t like people with a loud, aggressive campaign advocating ethical treatment of animals? Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/95 "2000-06-23T22:02:21Z")
Hmmm, it looks like Phil is having you guys for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Brea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Brea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brea)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/96 "2000-06-23T22:07:14Z")
Read it again, Cogitoergosum. What I said was “ANY STRANGER hands my children ANYTHING without my approval, they will lose a fucking body part.” Did I mention PETA? Did I say information or bloody clowns? I said ANY stranger, AnyTHING. My children have been taught that they do not accept anything handed to them by a stranger without one of their parents’ approval. And I expect people to respect my right to raise my children in the safest manner I deem necessary for them. My children are 9, 5, and 2. They already know where the food comes from that’s served to them. (Ok, so the 2-year old doesn’t yet, but he will) I told them myself, and yes, I have been to slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, so I know how it works. I believe in being as honest as possible with my children when they ask me questions. The older two know how they were created, they know how leather is produced (the 5 year-old just asked me that question yesterday, and got an honest answer), and they know that roadkill used to be a living, breathing creature. I said what I did because I’d like the people who plan on handing out these disgusting clowns to realize that most parents won’t let their children take or keep them. PETA could end up with several lawsuits on their hands for mental cruelty to children. And some of these people may be coming to court with black eyes from enraged parents who didn’t want to wait to let them know how they felt. I make no judgements about your intelligence. Don’t cast me in the role of the unenlightened simply because I will go to whatever lengths I feel necessary to protect my children. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/97 "2000-06-23T22:49:07Z")
PHIL – Apology accepted. You say: > [@](#): > > You’re a real saint. Thanks! > [@](#): > > See, here’s the thing: I already know what you think of me. Sigh. Yeah, you probably do. > [@](#): > > I also know what my wife (among others) thinks of you. Well, that makes one of us. And unless and until I hear her own opinion from _her_, good or bad, that will always be just one of us. > [@](#): > > I doubt you care as little about the latter as I do the former. I’m sure that’s true as well. > [@](#): > > So go ahead and say it, toots – you ain’t telling me anything new . . . Nah. We’ve already established that you already know. > [@](#): > > and it will only serve to further illustrate your now legendary hypocrisy. “Legendary hypocricy”? Legendary where? I’m afraid I’m a legend in your own mind. > [@](#): > > You know what the distinction is? I don’t fool myself regarding what people think of me. See, here I don’t know what you’re talking about. Again. I don’t believe I’ve hazarded an opinion about what people think of me (what people? think about me how?), so I fail do see how you could conclude I’m fooling myself in this regard. > [@](#): > > Oh, incidentally, I’d like to remind everyone that . . . oh-so-compassionate-and-sensible-and-nice jodih, with no reason whatsoever, stopped by a thread to call me a crybaby and a jerk. Wait a sec, this is getting more interesting. Whose opinion is it that I’m “oh-so-compassionate-and-sensible-and-nice”? Because it obviously isn’t yours, and it isn’t mine. In any event, here again I don’t know what you’re talking about. I recall you taking a break, but I don’t recall taking any pot-shots at you about it. Do you have a cite? Either way, isn’t this a pretty long time to be pissed about something that must have happened a while ago? And did you bring it up with me then? Because if you had, I doubt I would have forgotten it. Our exchanges are usually so memorable. > [@](#): > > Suffice to say I vehemently dislike her, and think her faults outweigh her good qualities by a significant margin. Suffice to say she feels exactly the same about you. > [@](#): > > Let it also be noted that I have never made it a secret that I am a vegetarian, advocate for animal rights, and a member of PETA, and to claim otherwise is sheer lunacy. If someone hasn’t seen it, it isn’t because I haven’t said it. No, but it could be because someone didn’t read it. Or maybe they did and forgot. I swear, Phil, there are very few people on this Board (okay, none) that I bother to keep a cheat sheet on (“Scorpio; dreams of being a torch singer; raised Pentacostal, now agnostic; doesn’t get enough oral sex”). The point is that you were offended about something that you never bothered to advise anyone was offending you until you’d already worked yourself up into a major lather. > [@](#): > > I see anti-vegetarian threads pop up here with increasing frequency. Not everybody like vegetarianism, Phil. That doesn’t mean they’re personally attacking you. > [@](#): > > I see my wife referred to as a “kook” by a network-affiliate local news broadcaster on the air. I see people take time from their day to send her abusive, obscene e-mail after reading her website. This, of course, is stuff happening in your personal life that no one simply posting to a message board could know. It’s one thing to rage because people have pushed a hot button after you’ve told them it’s hot and effectively asked them not to push it; it’s quite another to rage because people have pushed a hot button they didn’t even know was there. > [@](#): > > I get my beliefs mocked and insulted in a way that would be absolutely inexcusable if they were religious in basis. This is funny, coming from you. You know you yourself have mocked and insulted other peoples’ religious beliefs in the past, sometimes in the most colorful of terms. Why wasn’t that “inexcusable” then? _NOT_ that I’m advocating anyone mocking or insulting your beliefs; I’m not. For the record, I never intended to mock your beliefs. What I intended to say – and stand by, though I know it’s debatable – is that the “Unhappy Meal” campaign is poorly conceived and has “Bad Idea” written all over it. I think it serves to make the organization mounting it look silly, and I think it takes away from their primary message because it makes them look like a bunch of, well, sillikins. (I don’t want to inadvertantly insult you again.) That’s all. The point is that having a “loud, aggressive campaign” that makes you look like an idiot (no, not _you_) doesn’t advance your cause (IMO), no matter what that cause may be. Just my O. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/98 "2000-06-23T23:16:08Z")
Oh, and much as I’d love to hatch this thread all weekend, I’m off to float the Smith River instead. (Yeah, it was a tough call, but the rafting plans were made first.) I hope everyone has a great weekend. 🙂 Yes, even you, Phil. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2000, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/99 "2000-06-24T00:11:17Z")
pepperlandgirl: [quote}You could probably give me a full description with colored pictures of what you think the slaughterhouses are like. Wait, never mind. Been there, done that. It didn’t make me feel a bit sorry for the “poor animals.” However, when animal rights activists sabotage mink farms, it makes me feel very sorry for the families that count on that money to make a living. [/quote] I’m sorry it didn’t make you feel sorry for the poor animals. > [@](#): > > VANILLA – I see you taking Pepper to task for insulting Phil. I must have missed the part where you took Phil to task for insulting me. Okay. Must’ve forgot: Bad Phil, bad! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2000, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020/100 "2000-06-24T22:37:47Z")
Uhhhhhhh…Beth? Paraphrasing: > [@](#): > > \*\* > You know, I may just stake out my local McDonald’s Playland this summer…\*\* and > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’m considering taking some really offensive pornography with me…\*\* Just a suggestion - you may want to re-think this plan. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unhappy-meals/23020.md?page=6)